Cannons blowing up ships and other ramblings, anon reviewers, etc.

[rthstewart]

Enough’s enough.
The previous entry on Chapter 12 has exploded so at the risk of self-aggrandizement, I’m just going to move some of that discussion and such over here to a new entry. 

Neiman and Flavia, thanks for the reviews and Nemain it’s great to hear from you again. Flavia, as the comments to the previous entry indicate, you are not alone in your defense of Edmund. They are both to blame; I’m just annoyed with him that he did not explain to Morgan why he’s all angsty about Seth/brother/betraying family for material gain.

If you missed it, here is where you can read how my arm was twisted, courtesty of H., Clio, Min and Linnea into writing comment fic that ships Susan and the Director. His name is Rafe, by the way, decided after the fact. I have now written something near the end of a relationship, again. And, if/when I do write more, it’s going to be called Management Directive. It does explore a bit about where the Susan's interest in Rabadash might have come and so I'm pretty  happy that I got nudged in that direction.  Thank you friends!

I’ve been following something going on over in the Narnia ff.net site involving Antaprate I’ve got some issues with what she is doing, namely picking up a fic she dislikes and mocking it in a remix that slays the (invariably) female OC. It’s not the, OMG you are SO MEAN that bothers me so much, though what she does is mean. What bothers me more is the certain sense of moral righteousness that I see in the Narnia fic writers, reviewers, and certain communities. In her profile, Antaprate writes this about canon-compliance:

Just because a fanfic has no OCs in it does not mean it is a canon-compliant fic. If a fic contradicts canon in any way, it is not a canon-compliant fic. This includes having any Pevensies stay in Narnia after PC, Peter and/or Susan returning to Narnia after leaving in PC, Lucy and/or Edmund returning after DT, any pairings (except married couples) other than Cor/Aravis and Caspian/Ramandu’s daughter, Mr. Pevensie being killed in the war, any Pevensie dying, the White Witch returning after LWW, etc. Any of these are, by default, AU fics because they contradict canon.

In sum: no OCs =/= canon-compliant necessarily.

Now this bit about the relationships and such I really disagree with, for many, many reasons, including this distressing habit in Narnia fandom where authors claim that they are the canon keepers channeling Lewis’ intent and that anything that departs from this vision is AU, non-canon compliant, and by implication, inferior, etc. I wonder if it may come from the strong component of the fandom that is Evangelical Christian. They [edited as too over-broad] Some who adhere to this view may, I theorize, read the Bible literally and so too read Lewis literally. Regardless,  Antaprate takes a very, very narrow reading of “canon” that is common in this fandom but not so prevalent in others.

I would just point out that just because it is not mentioned in the text, does not mean it is not there. It just means it’s not mentioned, for whatever reason. I hope that she'll discuss this further, but she disables PMs so there's no way to interact with her unless she interacts with you.

To that end, with all the discussion of Morgan and Director Linch and Tebbitt, – all OCs – it makes me thoughtful when I consider Anaprate’s comment above. I’m not defending or arguing the canon-compliance point, nor do I particularly care if someone calls a story I write as non-canon compliant or otherwise. I’m routinely accused of perverting Lewis intent due to the background sexual content anyway, so at this point, whatever.    And so, on to the subject of romance, ships, and my OCs wandering about the landscape, come on in, the muddied, non canon-compliant water’s fine.

H., Linea, Clio, Indil, Min, and Autumnia in the previous entry and some PMs have been discussing whether Susan had a “true love,” in Narnia or otherwise, and also what the nature of her previous relationships, other than Rabadash.  Given the Colonel’s assessment of her, her actions with Tebbitt, and her conversations with Peter, she’s obviously had something. I’ve now stuck Director Linch into the mix, which makes for some interesting comparisons to Rabadash and Tebbitt and how her relationship with Tebbitt has developed and why.

Indil, Clio, and others, noted that so far, Peter is the odd man out, with only his one true love with the Cheetah and their little family group. I’ve promised to get to that, eventually, in AW. H. pointed out that I’ve mentioned how Peter doesn’t really, emotionally, have room for a romantic relationship, in much the same way that Asim has room only for war and God. I do see Peter’s loving of so many things so deeply and so well, and his hierarchy of values making it difficult, for all that he really wants it, to fit a relationship with a single person into the mix.

And I don’t ship Asim with anyone, even if he is very fond of dark chocolate.

In answer to some questions, I’ve not, by the way, ruled out same sex (though non-incestual) relationships, particular with those indiscriminate Dryads. I’ve just not written it. I’ve had in my head a discussion that Richard will have with Peter about the anecdotal observations made in the bush:

“Richard, is that observer bias, I detect? Or are you actually embarrassed? ”

“Well no,” Richard stammered, feeling oddly discomfited at the man’s composure. “But I do know that presenting a paper on observations of male giraffes’ sexual couplings would likely have me arrested on indecency grounds!”

This has also resulted in speculation that perhaps one reason Lucy and Edmund have (ultimately successful) relationships as compared to Susan and Peter is the confounding influence of the sex of their Guards. Autumnia also speculated that this might be because Lucy and Edmund are younger and feel freer to pursue these interests.

There was lots of discussion Edmund and Morgan’s poor communication, whether Edmund really is to blame, and how they are going to patch things up when I get around to the next section. I had thought to have Sallowpad tell Morgan about Edmund’s betrayal to the Witch here and how it is confounding his behavior now. That, however, is something that needs to come from him. I’d wanted to do a segment of Morgan in Narnia being all Banker like with Calormenes and such (oh gawd, more OCs) but now I’ll move that to Archenland with Edmund going to see her when she and Lucy return from their audit of the silver mine.

“Why isn’t Morgan coming to Narnia?” Edmund asked. “She’s completed the Code, she needs to make her report on the mine. Why not do that here rather than in Anvard?”

Peter adjusted his aching leg on the stool and restrained the urge to throw a heavy paperweight at his brother. “Perhaps because she wishes to avoid an awkward meeting with you.”

“Why would it be awkward?”

“I am not going to mediate your relationship, Edmund.”

“What is there to mediate?” Edmund countered. “I was not aware there was a problem.” He paused and then added lamely, “And it’s not a relationship.”

The snapping of Crow beaks and Jalur’s growl signaled the profound disagreement.

OK, stopping now.

Comments

[katharhino.livejournal.com]

Antaprate takes a very, very narrow reading of “canon” that is common in this fandom but not so prevalent in others.

Dude, your fandom is weeeeiiiiirrrrd. I say that to myself a lot, when reading your meta commentary and things like "Lucy is always portrayed as ____" or "the fandom convention is that Susan has to be _____" It really reinforces my general rule of staying OUT of Narnia fandom. You are the one exception. (Are you honored?)

Of course, my home fandom (Austen) has its own oddnesses, and don't even get me started on those.

I went back and reread the comments on the previous entry and I think I agree that Susan/Tebbitt is not my OTP. I was actually kind of surprised you ended with them together because I always thought they had more attraction/chemistry than potential for a Real Relationship.

I also like that you have characters that don't have to be in a relationship, either EVER or at this point in their lives. That seems much more realistic than pairing everyone off until no one is left.

I was most intrigued by the comments at the very bottom of the previous post, about Morgan's choices. I was thinking about that, and surely Morgan would know what she's getting herself into, given her background? I mean as far as producing a child. I'm assuming that would have been an expected part of the banker's arranged pairings, too. Maybe she never thought about it? And of course, it sucks if her only two choices in life are either bear a child to person X or to person Y. I don't mean to say that makes it all okay (how generous! She even gets to choose! Womens' lib!). But I mean that she would understand the implications. Or maybe she needs to be shown to have a possible third choice, after the restructuring of the Code, and she can at least consider it.

Throwing that out there because it got me thinking.

I can't wait for the Susan/Rafe Linch story. *ducks*

[katharhino.livejournal.com]

PS... reading the comments after me, I feel compelled to add that I assumed from day one that you were heading toward Peter/Mary, and I totally see that working, in an atypical sort of way. They have tons of chemistry, but equal strength unlike Susan/Tebbitt. If you weren't going there, then I'll be surprised and your surprises are great too.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

The discussions about Morgan have been incredibly helpful. I have assumed in my head that there are not any accidents in terms of her choices -- other than falling for him in the first place. Something that did occur to me, as I was working on a later scene is how she insists that she's so terrible with people -- and I could see her being very fearful of passing on her awkward,"undesirable" traits to children. There is a collision, of sorts -- her desire for independence and self determination with her loyalty of which a component of that is self-sacrifice. I think that where the resolution of them lies is, as E pointed out, in how much she feels she fits in Narnia. The two elements are in tension and are inherent in her character as written. So, there's a line there to be drawn.

And yeah, the fandom is weird.

As for the Tebbitt/Susan, I like how one person -- it might have been H. (and Clio said something similar), that if we look at Rabadash and Linch, it's Tebbitt who is the outlier. He's attractive, even if not her usual type, he's competent, and he respects her, which for Susan is key.

and another who sees Peter & Mary? Huh. This surprises me. I can count on one hand the number of reader who, until today, had said something about it.

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Agh, wow, she (probably; just going by statistics here) really does take a very narrow view, doesn't she? Ugh, fandom is so weird sometimes. This would be why I have a tendency to, ah, stay out of this side of it.

But moving on. Like someone before me commented, I love that you have all sorts of relationships (or the lack thereof, in some cases) in your stories, and they're not always perfect. And sometimes they are messy or confused or just broken but there's all sorts. And that's marvelous.

And I don’t ship Asim with anyone, even if he is very fond of dark chocolate. Yes.

(I'm also terribly excited for Susan/Rafe. If that makes me a bad person... good.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Come to our side of the fandom. We have dark chocolate.

yeah, I'm pretty pleased about the Director and Susan as well. I wonder if she would want Peter to come and meet him. And I really want Rafe and Susan to go shopping. And a Bird will be with them to advise on colors.

[autumnia]

Hmm. Well, I've never heard of her before and even if I did, her profile and her fic summaries do not encourage me to even look at her writings. With that frame of mind, I would think that all fanfic and film adaptations are totally non-canon compliant then.

Moving on... you know, I can't really see Asim (in his current guise and in the present moment where you've left off in Spare Oom) being with anyone. Perhaps yes, somewhere/sometime in his past, before he met Mary, but not the way he is today.

I am intrigued by that Richard/Peter conversation you posted up there...

And hah. For all that Edmund is witty and clever with words, he is an absolute failure when it comes to admitting that he and Morgan are in a relationship.

And somewhat off-topic, but apparently Songbirds do not only gossip and have non-bonded relationships, but they apparently are very good eavesdroppers.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I love your links. Have I mentioned that? Edmund is totally protesting too much. he just doesn't like that "r" word.

[linneasr.livejournal.com]

Regarding Anteprate's perspective: well, he's/she's entitled to it (can't stop her/him, anyway). But, from an anthropological perspective, it is a seriously mistaken opinion, because any cultural production which is forced to remain in one form eventually dies. So, your writings (and everyone else's writings) with non-canon events, sexual content and all these utterly glorious OCs gives life to the original CS Lewis stories. Without further creative embellishment, they would become period pieces: lovely to look at, even enchanting, but not part of the lived culture. The movies, the fanfic, the bad poetry - it's all necessary to keep Narnia alive. If it were only the seven books, we'd all read them once, maybe over and over, but it wouldn't grow.

These are my two cents! I wouldn't even bother keeping up with the debate, it's not worth it (the more one engages with mistakes, the more they entrench themselves, is my approach). It's the same mistake all the viciously narrow copyright laws are making, and part of the destruction of American culture, sad to say. We need to be able to interpret and reinterpret the meaningful elements in our culture, and that makes them current and meaningful again and again. Creativity creates life; stagnation creates death. It's true ecologically, and it's true culturally.

Moving ON, as most of the other say. (One last comment: please don't let wrong-headed people impose themselves on your spirits, Rth, it's too great a sacrifice)

I still ship Peter and Mary from The Stone Gryphon. His whole body is responding almost electrically to her, thanks to those hot & randy Dryads, and he's not King in England, so he doesn't have the emotional distractions. And Richard's dying. I can see Richard noticing the energy between them and doing something silly like asking Peter to take care of her. And whatever could be wrong with sameDryadsex? If Peter is getting all his needs taken care of by various Narnian Beasts and Creatures, how could he EVER find energy for True Love? It would just be soooooo difficult! Which is why (heh heh) it has to wait until Spare Oom, and Mary. Hah.

Edmund's denial is becoming a tad tiresome. He's the Just, he cannot be forever deceiving himself. Maybe he needs some corrective conversation with Aslan, or just a good look in the mirror if he imagines someone else with Morgan, but a wakeup call needs to be in the wings. Please! Or else my opinion of him may move beyond compassion into, I dunno, disbelief that someone capable of the sophistication you're setting us up for is also so caught up in self-illusions. Sorry if this sounds terse!

"Management Directive?" AAAHAHAAAaaaaaaaa, I LOVE it! Rth, you MUST publish!!

hugs, on the hottest day of the year

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

harmony_lover below has some interesting commentary on the subject of lit crit and the ongoing debate even today about just what Lewis' intent was. Her point is the same as yours, that a vibrant fan community, including fan fiction, helps to keep an otherwise static property culturally relevant. Your comments on Mary and Peter are cracking me up. A little while ago I got a review of Part 1 of TSG that was at first, OMG, PETER IS SO HAWT, followed by HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY HAD LOVERS! YOU IMMORAL UNCHRISTIAN WOMAN. LEWIS IS ROLLING OVER IN HIS GRAVE.

And YES, Edmund and Morgan shall TALK. See below about how she makes out a list of what she is going to say because she's had months to rehearse it. AND, I think Edmund needs to make up for a lost Two Hearts Day opportunity.

[varnafinde.livejournal.com]

" this distressing habit in Narnia fandom where authors claim that they are the canon keepers channeling Lewis’ intent and that anything that departs from this vision is AU, non-canon compliant, and by implication, inferior"

Oh dear. When people think that AU must by necessity be inferior, then I think they've got something wrong. Badly written stories are inferior to well written stories, is my point of view - canon or AU. Some AU settings I like, others I don't. But usually I don't get mad about them, and if I do, I usually just make sure to avoid that writer in the future.

I don't think canon keepers (as different from Canon Keepers) should take it upon them to channel the author's intent. They can say that something contradicts what's written in the text, and I'd agree that this would be AU - but to say that such and such a thing could never happen, is stretching it a bit too far (depending on the 'thing', perhaps). Author's intent is mostly interpretation - difficult to be authoritative about for anyone other than the author himself (and I heard about one author saying, "Well, if you found that in my text, it must be there").

The Canon Keepers can at least sometimes be fun writing - Antaprate didn't make her complaint into a fun story, she was just grumpy. In her profile as well.

Enough of that.

I think Asim is un-shippable, too. It just wouldn't be something he would give priority to.

I don't know who's most to blame of Edmund and Morgan. I did the same mistake as Morgan did myself once (with a friend, not in a relationship), so I can see how they would both mis-communicate in such a situation. My friend and I also both misunderstood the other (we talked about it some days later and got it sorted out, because she wasn't sailing to Narnia the next day). It can happen to the best of people. But it would happen more easily with these two.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Oh fandom. I ended up posting a review to her story. Admittedly, the, as Cofax says, "you're doing it wrong!" complaint regarding fan fic just makes my head hurt. I love all of it, even if I don't like the story itself, I love the messy creative process and the fact that it exists. To so categorically and bluntly state that THIS IS TRUTH, THIS IS CANON, well, that bothered me. I found it especially ironic given how my LJ has blown up in the past week over the discussion of OCS in romances of some sort or another with canon characters. For this underscores another delight of fan fic - the communities that build around stories. Oh well. A loss to be sure.

The message has been received. Morgan and Edmund need a talk.

"So," Edmund began.

Morgan sat, fiddling with the paper in her lap.

"So," he repeated.

"I wrote it all down," Morgan blurted out.

"Wrote what down?"

"Why I was upset, so that if you ever asked, I'd be ready." She hesitated and shuffled the paper.

"It seems you wrote a great deal," Edmund said. He didn't think he had been that odious.

"A few pages," she said, a little dismissively. "Not that much. And I had a lot of time over shut in."

That seemed like rather a lot of verbiage. "My faults were so many?"

She shrugged. "Well, I wrote it in Rat and Crow, so that took extra effort."

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

(Indil here. I *used* to have a livejournal about ten years ago. I have both forgotten the password and the school e-mail address I had it registered under is now defunct, so there's no chance of resetting it. I figured I'd start another journal, considering I entered the exchange. Gulp. Unfortunately, someone had taken Indil already.)

Anyway. Regarding what you said here:

"I would just point out that just because it is not mentioned in the text, does not mean it is not there. It just means it’s not mentioned, for whatever reason."

Word. By her definition, it seems that nothing happens behinds the scenes, characters never die unless mentioned on the page, and absolutely no one uses the toilet.

I cannot imagine shipping Asim with anyone. He just does not seem interested. There are those on this earth who can't go 12 hours without sex, there are those who have no desire to even partake in any sort of romantic relationship at anytime, with anyone, for whatever reason, and there are all those in between all along the spectrum. Asim happens to be a character who is tilted on the latter end. Shipping for shipping sake just isn't realistic.

And yes, I am a romantic at heart, but I find a life of solitude, whether by choice or circumstance, can be just as romantic as one of marital bliss. It's such a broad term by definition. I find Asim to be an extremely romantic character.

And oh, Edmund. Edmund, Edmund, Edmund. Why doesn't he want a relationship with Morgan? Because it sure seems like he doesn't. Where is all that denial coming from, anyway? Denial in AW, totally understand. But Narnia? Yeah, I don't get it.

(and I kinda like Peter/Mary, too)

--Indil

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Edmund's denial in Narnia? Well, if Edmund had emotional self-awareness and intelligence, he would probably realize that 1)in the interest of self-preservation, he's trying to convince himself it's not any big deal since DUH, she is going to be in the Lone Islands, she's going to head a House and (oh yeah marry someone else), etc. so it's obviously temporary; 2) he has difficulty trusting people and Morgan does have this habit of omitting critical information; 3) that whole consort/heir/succession thing is for Peter and Susan, not him. That all probably covers it, yes?

Asim and shipping for shipping's sake and the related point, though not mentioned specifically, of those people who see themselves as asexual, I don't want to have everyone paired off. Something that was fun to explore with the Guard relationships, with Digory, and with Asim, with the Colonel, Agnes, and so many others, is relationships and individuals that are very close and even intimate, but not sexual. I'm expressing this badly, but in fact, most the relationships in our lives are among friends and there are certainly some for whom personal intimacy is not a priority or even felt especially. I definitely put Asim in this category and writing Polly and Digory in that way has been a great joy.

[(Anonymous)]

I've been admittedly out of pocket - so I'll combine several thoughts here.

I loved both Chapter 11 and Chapter 12 - not only the text, but the conversation around them. That may be, in fact, what I like most about your writing. Not only is the story fabulous, interesting people have interesting things to say about them; which more than doubles my fun :)

Regarding Edmund's denial - I am hard pressed to see how anything short of Aslan himself would wake him up here.

Regarding Susan/Rafe - Oh my yes!

Regarding Peter/Mary - I'm so very lukewarm on this. I can see Peter falling for Mary, I can't see Mary falling for Peter. Too interested in Polly, maybe?

Regarding Peter, Richard and Giraffes - If I had disposable income (I don't) I'd pay to read that conversation, and I would double down if Asim was forced to eavesdrop and/or participate in that debate.

Regarding what's her face, this comes across to me as someone who is still innocent enough to maintain a black/white world view without shades of gray, much less color. It's terribly ironic to me that someone who is bashing OC's has to create one to do it. I feel very sorry at her targets, no one needs to be publically called out by a stranger for something written on fan fiction. I normally don't do it myself, but I'm making an exception in this case. Please feel free to look up my profile and tell me about it if you think this is to harsh, or have better suggestions about how to go about it.

Aee2335/Dr. Dolly

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Dolly-

I don't think what you wrote is excessive or harsh at all. I'm seriously busy today, so I've not responded to her yet, but I will. Both there and to all the comments here. As I said above, what she is doing is mean, and I don't agree with it, as I think all fic is a big, glorious, messy thing, and I love all of it, in concept, even if not execution. So, while I understand the desire for critique, what bothers me is that part of the assault is very much centered upon, "I know canon, you do not, and your work is inferior because it does not adhere to the intent of an old, dead author that I have divined." Original intent matters in US Supreme Court cases and contracts. Fan fiction, not so much.

[sedri.livejournal.com]

Asim/dark chocolate sounds like an excellent ship to me ;)

I'll just take a moment to say that all this meta discussion just makes your fics more interesting. I wish I had time to sit down and share my thoughts on every point, but as I'm in a rush I'll just say that that final little snippet of Peter and Oblivious-Edmund is both funny and sad, and I hope it'll make its way into the story somehow.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Waves at the drive by posting! The meta is great and really underscores what is sad about the attack on the stories/canon/OCs. There is a community of readers who coalesce around common creative interests that exists independent of the merits of an individual work. Or, something.

And I promise, Edmund shall Get a clue. As Indil and Linnea point out and argue to convincingly, it is TIME for a little understanding.

[cofax7]

picking up a fic she dislikes and mocking it in a remix that slays the (invariably) female OC

Oh, she's one of those "FANDOM: UR DOING IT RONG" people. How unpleasant. Not just because she's mean to the people she is mocking, or because she's fundamentally wrong, but because she's punishing people for their joy in their creativity, and that might stop some of those girls from writing in the future. And that's a crime.

I have no patience for that sort of thing, because seriously, life is too short to get all worked up about other people's fic tastes tainting your own pleasure. And I call bullshit on her not caring--she is doing it to punish people, having crowned herself the judge.

But nobody made her the jello sheriff of the internets (to misquote Bill Cosby), and the only power we really have over her is to continue to read and write the stuff that pisses her off. Eventually, if she's lucky, she'll get over herself, and likely she'll be rather embarrassed by her behavior. Because what is really gained by scolding 13-year-olds who are just having fun?

God forbid she find her way to AO3 or LJ, where we're ALL non-canon-compliant, or whatever.

Feh. Fandom police: bah.

Oh, I wanted to let you know that I have downloaded several of your longer stories from the AO3 to keep on my Kindle, so I can read (and reread) at leisure! I love that function!

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

UR DOING IT WRONG! I think we need icons. And a wienie roast. And marshmallows. I do find this all tinged with ironic sadness in light of the loveliness of fannish communities celebrated in Grossman's article, you know?

And ahhh, so you're reading other stuff. Thank you! it might not be for you, but hey, thanks all the same!!

*sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

Apparently the PPC's unknown, then, if you think I am mean. Or perhaps you simply disapprove of what they do as well.

Hello. It is I, Antaprate. And despite my attempts to answer questions on my profile, it seems there is still confusion. Particularly on the subject of OCs and canon/AU.

I have nothing against OCs in general. I have nothing against AU in general. And non-canon-compliant or AU fic is certainly not inferior. For one example, see Caleon's Blades of Narnia series.

Also, I do this for catharsis when a fic really and truly makes me angry, or when something in particular about a fic makes me angry. Not just because I merely "dislike" it. There are plenty of fics I only dislike, fics that do not fill me with rage.

The fact that the slayings have so far been mostly of female OCs is a coincidence. There will be future ones that deal with canon characters only. And there are very few male OCs in this fandom in the first place, so I do not know whether any will pop up in slayings.

As to the "reading literally" part, I firmly believe that if Lewis had meant the Pevensies to be married or fallen in love in canon, he would have mentioned it. I understand fully that you do not share this view.

To be perfectly honest, it is more about my catharsis than how uncanon it is.

*shrug* I cannot stop you from saying things about me, but I would prefer that they not be contrary to fact.

Re: *sigh*

[cofax7]

Perhaps your time would be better spent reading, and writing, stories you like, then.

You will never defeat the forces of the almighty Mary Sue, and it is pointless to try.

If you enjoy spending your emotional energy in policing other people's creativity, well, too bad for you, then. In five years, or ten, you'll find yourself embarrassed at your inflexibility (and your lack of charity).

[elouise82.livejournal.com]

It always makes me sad when anyone - not picking on anybody in particular here, just a general attitude of many people - insists on Narnia being a simple, pure, straightforward place that is all about the innocence of childhood or whatever. Lewis had a fantastically tricky mind, and I think so many have been wrongly influenced by Tolkein's famous (or infamous) curt dismissal of Narnia.

The Narnia books have layers upon layers, and hidden meanings go far, far beyond the Christian threads he weaves through. As with the Underworld, where you have deeper and deeper worlds, or the stable-world in The Last Battle, where each inside layer is bigger and richer than the last, the more you look at the Narnia books, the more hidden patterns you can see emerging. And if Lewis himself deliberately left so much unsaid but meant to be read in by those with eyes to see, then I have no problems with people like you, Ruth, taking those hints and running with them.

So much for general comments. To you specifically, Antaprate, believe it or not, I do understand how easy it is to be upset by really bad writing and cheap plot devices. That's why I don't read those sorts of stories, because quite frankly, life is too short to waste time on getting enraged by fanfiction. Regardless, if that's how you choose to spend your time, that's up to you. I fear, though, that in your desire to keep canon pure, you have lost sight of Lewis' character. He loved children. He had an enormous sense of humor, including the ability to laugh at himself. He, as someone above mentioned, encouraged fanfiction. Even when children wrote to him asking him to critique their works, he respected them as human beings and treated their writings, no matter how bad, with respect. Perhaps, instead of trying to save the Narnia fandom, you mights how more love for it by emulating Lewis himself.

And Ruth (wow this is getting long) I am so looking forward to seeing Jalur smack Edmund upside the head with a paw to clear up his deliberate misunderstanding of his "relationship" with Morgan.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Beautifully put, Eloise. I too wish that there were greater focus among more authors and works on the other messages that I see in Lewis' work of inclusion, love, forgiveness, and mercy. I "get" the frustration certain fic induces, but my rage comes from different varieties of fic, admittedly. As you say, fic, fandom, and the world in general would be lovelier places if there was more emulation of love and Lewis himself. And also, fic serves so many wondrous purposes apart from the simple creative joy of doing something just for the heck of it and maybe one person who says, "I loved it!"

and yes, EDMUND SHALL GET A CLUE. Errr, must write other things first.

[harmony-lover.livejournal.com]

Wow. All right, so I have admittedly read through this entire thread, which contains many, many spoilers for the chapters of "H & M" that I haven't read yet, just to get a handle on this debate regarding OCs and canon compliance.

In general, I agree with those of you who are all for creating new characters, situations, and episodes for a particular fandom. There is such a thing as cultural relevance, and I think one of the spectacular functions of fan fiction is that it does keep many, many creative producitons culturally relevant, for much longer than they might otherwise be.

As a complete scholarly side note: This is why, when Harry Potter first blew up issues of fandom and copyright and creative license, etc., Jo Rowling, Scholastic, and Warner Borthers ultimately decided to let a massive fandom evolve without prosecution. First of all, it's bad PR to prosecute fans who are promoting your product. Second, the larger a fandom is and the longer it proliferates, the longer a work remains culturally important and the more potential it has to generate profits. End of side note.

All of that said: Regarging Narnia in particular, why should "canon" be regarded as what Lewis wrote, and nothing more? Even textual scholars (that is to say, literary scholars who look for meaning in the text and only the text) are still debating to this day precisely what Lewis "meant," and not just in terms of Narnia, but in terms of all of his religious philosophy. Add historical context or different forms of religious dogma in there and the meaning becomes even more debatable and complicated. In additon, reader response theory tells us that readers interpret, appropriate, and remember texts in different ways, so if you are from the school that says meaning is made by the reader, having one "canon" interpretation is literally impossible. Even in the best of fictional criticism worlds, one can only really take "canon" to mean the events and relationships that are laid out in the book. "Canon" does NOT EXCLUDE anything that may have happened off the page or out of the scene. Even AU stories may be canon to a point, or may be complete reimaginings.

This discussion is fascinating - and I think it has forced me to the conclusion that I have to catch up on my reading!

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful contribution. Thank you! Linnea up above made similar points about how fandom interaction and fiction help keep static things alive and culturally relevant as well. Have you read the Grossman article in Time yet about fanfiction? It's terrific and goes to the idea, actually on display here, of fan fiction as community building. I so appreciate you bringing in the ideas of both textualist interpretation and reader response theory. In my own profession, I look a consumer surveys and focus group studies and that data certainly demonstrates that readers pull wildly different things from text. It is fiendishly difficult to convey a single meaning to different readers when they all come at the text from such different places.

I don't tend to look overmuch at current scholarship on Lewis, but I find it very interesting and reassuring that the debate of his meanings continues. As Elouise says, his work is so complex and layered, it's difficult to pull any single thing from it.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

Omg, THIS IS MY PET PEEVE. Things that are not mentioned in canon aren't "not canon compliant." God help us all, there are a lot of things that are technically canon compliant. Peter and Susan falling in love between LWW and HHB (before epically breaking up for HHB) but reconciling post-Rabadash and having a kid before the Stag is...probably actually canon compliant technically. It wouldn't work for me, it wouldn't make sense in my head, it's not compliant with the Narnia I have in my head, but Lewis never blatantly contradicts that that I can recall.

I mean, I too take a very very conservative view of canon (I mean. To the point that I technically don't consider, say, the three-year gap between PC and VDT to be canon because Caspian might be lying. That he says it is canon. That he's telling the truth is...plausible). But I don't go around freaking out when people expand on canon in fic. You have to; otherwise it wouldn't be fic, would it? It would have to be canon, boring, yawn.

tl;dr: Stories where Susan is on the train are either AU (and I adore AUs, my favorite fic of mine is AU) or Didn't Do The Reading, but stories where she bought the ticket are totally canon-compliant. We didn't see it =/= it didn't happen.

Loooool slayers, also. I'm afraid to click on one, I think my eyes might burn.

I am amused by your last sentence.

[(Anonymous)]

I also wonder why you think that.

[belle-of-books.livejournal.com]

First of all, I just wanted to say I found this article of yours very interesting. I normally enjoy canon pieces better than any others because I find that the personalities of the characters Lewis wrote remain truer than non-canon pieces. Your work is the exception to that rule. I read your stories because they take character traits that you have observed and you elaborate upon those said traits. Most AU work that I have read is not as well written as I would like (keeping in mind, of course, this is MY opinion, no offense meant to other people). For me, it's about the characters. I don't want to read a story where everything is changed simply for the sake of creating whatever fantasy world is in any given person's head. The reason I will still read your work for example, is because the world you created has a backstory, it is researched, and the work itself is well written.

One could make the argument that there is no canon in fanfiction. Fanfiction is taking characters and making them say and do things that they did not do in the book, even if the writer thinks the character personalities aline with C.S. Lewis' original works. As a general rule, I don't like reading the Pevensies doing who knows what that makes no sense. But whatever; I don't have to read them, and I won't.

That being said, your comment blaming this on Evangelical Christians might have an element of truth. Often, sadly, they hold tightly to morals and standards. I do myself, and I would be lying if I said that incest/slash relationships didn't offend me to a certain extent. In defense of Evangelical Christians (I am one myself and am keeping in mind that you used the word "some"...), yes, it is very easy to read Lewis too easily, but please keep in mind that many people read these books as young children and in their minds these characters remain the innocent youngsters that they themselves were. Reading stories that (in their minds) pervert the sense of innocence that accompanies the books they were taught to revere can be very offensive. And of course, they grew up to read C.S. Lewis' other books such as "Mere Christianity," etc. On behalf of Christians, I apologize for the offensive comments that were directed toward yourself. They are inexcusable. Lewis' work was broad and in many cases does leave plenty of room for imagination, one of the benefits of reading the stories as imaginative children.

I have stopped reading this fandom on general fanfiction pages. It becomes harder and harder for me to find good pieces. Nowadays I look for recommended fics, such as those you sometimes recommend, etc. Or I look in communities. Any way, sorry for this long rant. :)

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Thanks Belle for the nice words! Yours isn't a rant at all. I appreciate it and hugely value those who are still reading and still with me! I wanted to be careful about the characterization of evangelicals as it is a very broad community of diverse belief. This is why I ended up theorizing the far narrower point that those who, as a matter of theological practice, read the Bible very literally (most commonly a subset of American evangelical Protestants, but not necessarily), also might be more likely to narrowly interpret "canon" in the Chronicles, and probably other books as well. It is how they approach important text in their lives.

At this point, we move a bit beyond the topic here, but by and large I agree with your points, though I break them out separately. The first point, that I've talked about before on NFFR, is why some people really do not like reading adult content in their Narnia fic. I know a number of people who fall in that category and one reason is precisely as you identify -- regardless of religious and social belief, they strongly associate the Chronicles with a childhood innocence. To the extent they are interested in more adult fare (and many of them are), including violence, M rated contented and same sex pairings, they find it in other fandoms. To explore those issues in Narnia fic produces a "squick." It's not canon-based, or even rooted in religious belief, though it might be. It's about preservation of something cherished of childhood. The Pevensies will ALWAYS be children and they want to keep it that way in the fic they enjoy.

Which is obviously, fine. DUH. This is supposed to be fun, and they don't get enjoyment out of adult-oriented content, stick to Narnia gen fic,and are picky about what they read.

Teasing out the second argument you make is, I think, more rooted in some within the evangelical religious community -- again understanding I'm painting with a broad brush. Such individuals perceive the Chronicles in a very personal and even proprietary way -- certainly encouraged by the way in which the films were marketed to and vetted by the faith community in the U.S. In a sea of objectionable content and Hollywood commercialism, in the continual assault upon their values by an entertainment media complex perceived as crass and immoral, they cherish Narnia as "safe." I get that point, too.

Where I part company with both arguments is when: 1)it becomes judgmental as, in "you're doing it wrong," and/or 2) the person asserts she is the oracle of the author's intent, which should govern and control (and often at the expense of other parts of the Chronicles' gentle and inclusive message); and/or 3) what often follows from 1 and 2, "Rthstewart, you should be ashamed of yourself! HOW DARE YOU! Lewis would be rolling over in his grave!"

As a Bitter Old Fanfic Queen (thanks Cofax7 for that one, though I'm really not bitter at all -- jaded is probably the better term), who is twice or three times of the age of those leveling these charges, I really don't get the desire to BE RIGHT and condemn the rest of us. I love fandom, I love fic, I love the Chronicles, and I love the communities that build up around them.