rthstewart (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rthstewart) wrote2011-07-20 11:47 am
rthstewart) wrote2011-07-20 11:47 am
Cannons blowing up ships and other ramblings, anon reviewers, etc.
Enough’s enough.
The previous entry on Chapter 12 has exploded so at the risk of self-aggrandizement, I’m just going to move some of that discussion and such over here to a new entry.
Neiman and Flavia, thanks for the reviews and Nemain it’s great to hear from you again. Flavia, as the comments to the previous entry indicate, you are not alone in your defense of Edmund. They are both to blame; I’m just annoyed with him that he did not explain to Morgan why he’s all angsty about Seth/brother/betraying family for material gain.
If you missed it, here is where you can read how my arm was twisted, courtesty of H., Clio, Min and Linnea into writing comment fic that ships Susan and the Director. His name is Rafe, by the way, decided after the fact. I have now written something near the end of a relationship, again. And, if/when I do write more, it’s going to be called Management Directive. It does explore a bit about where the Susan's interest in Rabadash might have come and so I'm pretty happy that I got nudged in that direction. Thank you friends!
I’ve been following something going on over in the Narnia ff.net site involving Antaprate I’ve got some issues with what she is doing, namely picking up a fic she dislikes and mocking it in a remix that slays the (invariably) female OC. It’s not the, OMG you are SO MEAN that bothers me so much, though what she does is mean. What bothers me more is the certain sense of moral righteousness that I see in the Narnia fic writers, reviewers, and certain communities. In her profile, Antaprate writes this about canon-compliance:
Now this bit about the relationships and such I really disagree with, for many, many reasons, including this distressing habit in Narnia fandom where authors claim that they are the canon keepers channeling Lewis’ intent and that anything that departs from this vision is AU, non-canon compliant, and by implication, inferior, etc. I wonder if it may come from the strong component of the fandom that is Evangelical Christian.They [edited as too over-broad] Some who adhere to this view may, I theorize, read the Bible literally and so too read Lewis literally. Regardless, Antaprate takes a very, very narrow reading of “canon” that is common in this fandom but not so prevalent in others.
I would just point out that just because it is not mentioned in the text, does not mean it is not there. It just means it’s not mentioned, for whatever reason. I hope that she'll discuss this further, but she disables PMs so there's no way to interact with her unless she interacts with you.
To that end, with all the discussion of Morgan and Director Linch and Tebbitt, – all OCs – it makes me thoughtful when I consider Anaprate’s comment above. I’m not defending or arguing the canon-compliance point, nor do I particularly care if someone calls a story I write as non-canon compliant or otherwise. I’m routinely accused of perverting Lewis intent due to the background sexual content anyway, so at this point, whatever. And so, on to the subject of romance, ships, and my OCs wandering about the landscape, come on in, the muddied, non canon-compliant water’s fine.
H., Linea, Clio, Indil, Min, and Autumnia in the previous entry and some PMs have been discussing whether Susan had a “true love,” in Narnia or otherwise, and also what the nature of her previous relationships, other than Rabadash. Given the Colonel’s assessment of her, her actions with Tebbitt, and her conversations with Peter, she’s obviously had something. I’ve now stuck Director Linch into the mix, which makes for some interesting comparisons to Rabadash and Tebbitt and how her relationship with Tebbitt has developed and why.
Indil, Clio, and others, noted that so far, Peter is the odd man out, with only his one true love with the Cheetah and their little family group. I’ve promised to get to that, eventually, in AW. H. pointed out that I’ve mentioned how Peter doesn’t really, emotionally, have room for a romantic relationship, in much the same way that Asim has room only for war and God. I do see Peter’s loving of so many things so deeply and so well, and his hierarchy of values making it difficult, for all that he really wants it, to fit a relationship with a single person into the mix.
And I don’t ship Asim with anyone, even if he is very fond of dark chocolate.
In answer to some questions, I’ve not, by the way, ruled out same sex (though non-incestual) relationships, particular with those indiscriminate Dryads. I’ve just not written it. I’ve had in my head a discussion that Richard will have with Peter about the anecdotal observations made in the bush:
This has also resulted in speculation that perhaps one reason Lucy and Edmund have (ultimately successful) relationships as compared to Susan and Peter is the confounding influence of the sex of their Guards. Autumnia also speculated that this might be because Lucy and Edmund are younger and feel freer to pursue these interests.
There was lots of discussion Edmund and Morgan’s poor communication, whether Edmund really is to blame, and how they are going to patch things up when I get around to the next section. I had thought to have Sallowpad tell Morgan about Edmund’s betrayal to the Witch here and how it is confounding his behavior now. That, however, is something that needs to come from him. I’d wanted to do a segment of Morgan in Narnia being all Banker like with Calormenes and such (oh gawd, more OCs) but now I’ll move that to Archenland with Edmund going to see her when she and Lucy return from their audit of the silver mine.
The previous entry on Chapter 12 has exploded so at the risk of self-aggrandizement, I’m just going to move some of that discussion and such over here to a new entry.
Neiman and Flavia, thanks for the reviews and Nemain it’s great to hear from you again. Flavia, as the comments to the previous entry indicate, you are not alone in your defense of Edmund. They are both to blame; I’m just annoyed with him that he did not explain to Morgan why he’s all angsty about Seth/brother/betraying family for material gain.
If you missed it, here is where you can read how my arm was twisted, courtesty of H., Clio, Min and Linnea into writing comment fic that ships Susan and the Director. His name is Rafe, by the way, decided after the fact. I have now written something near the end of a relationship, again. And, if/when I do write more, it’s going to be called Management Directive. It does explore a bit about where the Susan's interest in Rabadash might have come and so I'm pretty happy that I got nudged in that direction. Thank you friends!
I’ve been following something going on over in the Narnia ff.net site involving Antaprate I’ve got some issues with what she is doing, namely picking up a fic she dislikes and mocking it in a remix that slays the (invariably) female OC. It’s not the, OMG you are SO MEAN that bothers me so much, though what she does is mean. What bothers me more is the certain sense of moral righteousness that I see in the Narnia fic writers, reviewers, and certain communities. In her profile, Antaprate writes this about canon-compliance:
Just because a fanfic has no OCs in it does not mean it is a canon-compliant fic. If a fic contradicts canon in any way, it is not a canon-compliant fic. This includes having any Pevensies stay in Narnia after PC, Peter and/or Susan returning to Narnia after leaving in PC, Lucy and/or Edmund returning after DT, any pairings (except married couples) other than Cor/Aravis and Caspian/Ramandu’s daughter, Mr. Pevensie being killed in the war, any Pevensie dying, the White Witch returning after LWW, etc. Any of these are, by default, AU fics because they contradict canon.
In sum: no OCs =/= canon-compliant necessarily.
In sum: no OCs =/= canon-compliant necessarily.
Now this bit about the relationships and such I really disagree with, for many, many reasons, including this distressing habit in Narnia fandom where authors claim that they are the canon keepers channeling Lewis’ intent and that anything that departs from this vision is AU, non-canon compliant, and by implication, inferior, etc. I wonder if it may come from the strong component of the fandom that is Evangelical Christian.
I would just point out that just because it is not mentioned in the text, does not mean it is not there. It just means it’s not mentioned, for whatever reason. I hope that she'll discuss this further, but she disables PMs so there's no way to interact with her unless she interacts with you.
To that end, with all the discussion of Morgan and Director Linch and Tebbitt, – all OCs – it makes me thoughtful when I consider Anaprate’s comment above. I’m not defending or arguing the canon-compliance point, nor do I particularly care if someone calls a story I write as non-canon compliant or otherwise. I’m routinely accused of perverting Lewis intent due to the background sexual content anyway, so at this point, whatever. And so, on to the subject of romance, ships, and my OCs wandering about the landscape, come on in, the muddied, non canon-compliant water’s fine.
H., Linea, Clio, Indil, Min, and Autumnia in the previous entry and some PMs have been discussing whether Susan had a “true love,” in Narnia or otherwise, and also what the nature of her previous relationships, other than Rabadash. Given the Colonel’s assessment of her, her actions with Tebbitt, and her conversations with Peter, she’s obviously had something. I’ve now stuck Director Linch into the mix, which makes for some interesting comparisons to Rabadash and Tebbitt and how her relationship with Tebbitt has developed and why.
Indil, Clio, and others, noted that so far, Peter is the odd man out, with only his one true love with the Cheetah and their little family group. I’ve promised to get to that, eventually, in AW. H. pointed out that I’ve mentioned how Peter doesn’t really, emotionally, have room for a romantic relationship, in much the same way that Asim has room only for war and God. I do see Peter’s loving of so many things so deeply and so well, and his hierarchy of values making it difficult, for all that he really wants it, to fit a relationship with a single person into the mix.
And I don’t ship Asim with anyone, even if he is very fond of dark chocolate.
In answer to some questions, I’ve not, by the way, ruled out same sex (though non-incestual) relationships, particular with those indiscriminate Dryads. I’ve just not written it. I’ve had in my head a discussion that Richard will have with Peter about the anecdotal observations made in the bush:
“Richard, is that observer bias, I detect? Or are you actually embarrassed? ”
“Well no,” Richard stammered, feeling oddly discomfited at the man’s composure. “But I do know that presenting a paper on observations of male giraffes’ sexual couplings would likely have me arrested on indecency grounds!”
“Well no,” Richard stammered, feeling oddly discomfited at the man’s composure. “But I do know that presenting a paper on observations of male giraffes’ sexual couplings would likely have me arrested on indecency grounds!”
This has also resulted in speculation that perhaps one reason Lucy and Edmund have (ultimately successful) relationships as compared to Susan and Peter is the confounding influence of the sex of their Guards. Autumnia also speculated that this might be because Lucy and Edmund are younger and feel freer to pursue these interests.
There was lots of discussion Edmund and Morgan’s poor communication, whether Edmund really is to blame, and how they are going to patch things up when I get around to the next section. I had thought to have Sallowpad tell Morgan about Edmund’s betrayal to the Witch here and how it is confounding his behavior now. That, however, is something that needs to come from him. I’d wanted to do a segment of Morgan in Narnia being all Banker like with Calormenes and such (oh gawd, more OCs) but now I’ll move that to Archenland with Edmund going to see her when she and Lucy return from their audit of the silver mine.
“Why isn’t Morgan coming to Narnia?” Edmund asked. “She’s completed the Code, she needs to make her report on the mine. Why not do that here rather than in Anvard?”
Peter adjusted his aching leg on the stool and restrained the urge to throw a heavy paperweight at his brother. “Perhaps because she wishes to avoid an awkward meeting with you.”
“Why would it be awkward?”
“I am not going to mediate your relationship, Edmund.”
“What is there to mediate?” Edmund countered. “I was not aware there was a problem.” He paused and then added lamely, “And it’s not a relationship.”
The snapping of Crow beaks and Jalur’s growl signaled the profound disagreement.
OK, stopping now. Peter adjusted his aching leg on the stool and restrained the urge to throw a heavy paperweight at his brother. “Perhaps because she wishes to avoid an awkward meeting with you.”
“Why would it be awkward?”
“I am not going to mediate your relationship, Edmund.”
“What is there to mediate?” Edmund countered. “I was not aware there was a problem.” He paused and then added lamely, “And it’s not a relationship.”
The snapping of Crow beaks and Jalur’s growl signaled the profound disagreement.
no subject
One could make the argument that there is no canon in fanfiction. Fanfiction is taking characters and making them say and do things that they did not do in the book, even if the writer thinks the character personalities aline with C.S. Lewis' original works. As a general rule, I don't like reading the Pevensies doing who knows what that makes no sense. But whatever; I don't have to read them, and I won't.
That being said, your comment blaming this on Evangelical Christians might have an element of truth. Often, sadly, they hold tightly to morals and standards. I do myself, and I would be lying if I said that incest/slash relationships didn't offend me to a certain extent. In defense of Evangelical Christians (I am one myself and am keeping in mind that you used the word "some"...), yes, it is very easy to read Lewis too easily, but please keep in mind that many people read these books as young children and in their minds these characters remain the innocent youngsters that they themselves were. Reading stories that (in their minds) pervert the sense of innocence that accompanies the books they were taught to revere can be very offensive. And of course, they grew up to read C.S. Lewis' other books such as "Mere Christianity," etc. On behalf of Christians, I apologize for the offensive comments that were directed toward yourself. They are inexcusable. Lewis' work was broad and in many cases does leave plenty of room for imagination, one of the benefits of reading the stories as imaginative children.
I have stopped reading this fandom on general fanfiction pages. It becomes harder and harder for me to find good pieces. Nowadays I look for recommended fics, such as those you sometimes recommend, etc. Or I look in communities. Any way, sorry for this long rant. :)
no subject
At this point, we move a bit beyond the topic here, but by and large I agree with your points, though I break them out separately. The first point, that I've talked about before on NFFR, is why some people really do not like reading adult content in their Narnia fic. I know a number of people who fall in that category and one reason is precisely as you identify -- regardless of religious and social belief, they strongly associate the Chronicles with a childhood innocence. To the extent they are interested in more adult fare (and many of them are), including violence, M rated contented and same sex pairings, they find it in other fandoms. To explore those issues in Narnia fic produces a "squick." It's not canon-based, or even rooted in religious belief, though it might be. It's about preservation of something cherished of childhood. The Pevensies will ALWAYS be children and they want to keep it that way in the fic they enjoy.
Which is obviously, fine. DUH. This is supposed to be fun, and they don't get enjoyment out of adult-oriented content, stick to Narnia gen fic,and are picky about what they read.
Teasing out the second argument you make is, I think, more rooted in some within the evangelical religious community -- again understanding I'm painting with a broad brush. Such individuals perceive the Chronicles in a very personal and even proprietary way -- certainly encouraged by the way in which the films were marketed to and vetted by the faith community in the U.S. In a sea of objectionable content and Hollywood commercialism, in the continual assault upon their values by an entertainment media complex perceived as crass and immoral, they cherish Narnia as "safe." I get that point, too.
Where I part company with both arguments is when: 1)it becomes judgmental as, in "you're doing it wrong," and/or 2) the person asserts she is the oracle of the author's intent, which should govern and control (and often at the expense of other parts of the Chronicles' gentle and inclusive message); and/or 3) what often follows from 1 and 2, "Rthstewart, you should be ashamed of yourself! HOW DARE YOU! Lewis would be rolling over in his grave!"
As a Bitter Old Fanfic Queen (thanks Cofax7 for that one, though I'm really not bitter at all -- jaded is probably the better term), who is twice or three times of the age of those leveling these charges, I really don't get the desire to BE RIGHT and condemn the rest of us. I love fandom, I love fic, I love the Chronicles, and I love the communities that build up around them.
At this point...
(Anonymous) 2011-07-22 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)1) I am not Evangelical.
2) I do not claim to be an oracle of Lewis, or channel his intent. For heaven's sake, PLEASE stop claiming that. It is getting quite aggravating.
3) I have *nothing* against good AU.
4) I follow in the august footsteps of the PPC, though they are much more skilled than I.
5) I do not feel that what I do is horrible.
6) Whatever others' opinions of me may be, I have no plans to stop.
I recall having an argument with another group of people over a very controversial subject. Both I and they flatly refused to back down, and I finally withdrew. I will probably do the same here. You shall be the water, and I shall be a duck. I am quite used to letting anger and gossip roll off me.
Farewell.
no subject