rthstewart | Not AU exactly -- AW through a blurry, malfunctioning telescope

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Not AU exactly -- AW through a blurry, malfunctioning telescope

In the following, we now cover 15-16 years, and this goes places I did not intend, and we end up not in AU exactly, but maybe. It's not what I'd intended. The first part is re-hash of the commentfic and I blame

lady_songsmith for the prompt that took us to the Amazon and then

anastigmatfic for where we’ve ended up, however improbably. The very end is new.

It begins in Brazil, 1932, more or less with Polly, Mary, Asim, and the wet books from the post yesterday.

Polly blew out an aggravated breath. “And I suppose that all the examination textbooks Digory gave you were in that bag now sinking to the bottom of the second longest river in the world?”

“I’m afraid so,” Mary replied airily. “The Latin and Greek, the religion, and the philosophy.”

“The only thing that did not fall in is Gadow’s Amphibia and Reptiles,” Asim added.

“That is a stroke of luck, what?”

Polly vowed she was never traveling again with a seventeen year old girl. If she wanted further demonstration of the merits of relationships only with women, and rigorous use of contraception when with men, here it was in the boat next to her.

“What do you think, Asim?” Polly asked.

“If you are proposing I dive in to get the bag, and save Digory the apoplexy, I think I am more comfortable swimming with the fauna of Africa than South America.”

“Mary? What’s down there if I push you in to retrieve your bookbag?”

“Well, there is Eunectes murinus, of course.”

Asim looked at Polly and she whispered, “Green Anaconda.”

“Largest snake in the world. There’s also Melanosuchus niger.”

“That’s a…”

“I know,” Asim said wearily. “It’s some kind of crocodile.”

“I wonder…” Mary leaned precariously over the side of the boat and stuck her fingers into a small school of circling fish. The fish rushed at her appetizing appendage.

“Ha! I thought so!” Mary exclaimed, yanking her hand out of the water. “Pygocentrus nattereri!!” She waggled her fingers – one was bleeding.

That did it.

“Asim, start the engine,” Polly said, utterly exasperated. Tempting as it was to shove Mary in, Polly really couldn’t blame her. The red piranhas of the Amazon were welcome to Digory’s fourth best copy of the Virgil’s Aeneid and Duns Scotus’ Questions on Metaphysics.

Followed by anastigmatfic,

When Digs found out about this, it was a thing to see. His Victorian British cast-iron sentimentality warred mightily with his profound irritation for the treatment of the Dread Dunce - as Mary called him, and as Polly tended to heartily agree. All involved watched avidly as various emotions flitted across Digs' face.

Finally, he came to a concluding explosion that was neither too sentimental nor too stoic.

"MARY ANNING!" he thundered. "YOU ARE NEVER TO REMOVE ANY WRITTEN MATERIALS FROM MY OFFICE AGAIN. UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. EVER. HAVE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR?"

"Crystal," said Mary, shifting to attention in her seat.

Only Asim noticed the battered copy of Darwin's Descent of Man which Mary slipped into her rucksack, behind her back. He said nothing, of course -- nothing verbal, that is; in a quiet place within himself he asked Allah to please make him understand why he, Asim, had been compelled to follow so troublesome a charge.

Mary, always aware of attention, winked at Asim over her shoulder before attentively returning to Digory's tirade. Asim cracked a slight smile, against his own will. So be it: Allah had a sense of humor, and that was reason enough for this.

10 years later, with a slight rewrite of Chapter 2 of Part 1 of TSG

Oxford, June 1942

"So, how goes the study of the dread Dunce?"

"Well," Digory began, resolved to ignore Mary’s usual epithet and stepping away from the Wardrobe, "we…"

"I was asking the question of Peter. He's more likely to give me an untarnished answer."

Peter was in the process of pulling his own chair out to make more space in the room. "Mary? Would you like a seat?"

"Oh, for the moment, but we'll have to sit on the floor for tea."

Digory must have imagined the cloud of sand that seemed to puff out when she plopped down inelegantly into Peter's vacated seat.

Peter retreated to the bookshelf as Digory found his own squeaky office chair again.

"Well?" Mary demanded again, speaking directly at Peter. "And stop with meaningful looks at one another!"

"If you mean the Blessed John Duns Scotus, the work has been a bit frustrating," Peter admitted.

"Aha!" Mary pinned Digory with a fierce glare. "Not that I take particular issue with Scotus' whole reasoning from effect to cause. I also certainly agree that we can come to know God apart from revelation. But, I have serious concerns about his Immaculate Conception argument. I mean really, it's all very fine and well for her, but procreation without sex is a rather difficult trick for other women to emulate, yes?" Here, she had to pause for a breath – thankfully not elaborating further on the last point. "And I really can't follow Dunce's seven part Proof for the Existence of God beyond Step 5D."

Declining the implicit challenge to debate theology, Peter continued calmly. "I meant that we are having difficulty locating some of Scotus’ works that should be in the Oxford Franciscan library."

"Have you looked on your own desk, Digory?" Mary asked sweetly.

"Unfortunately, yes," he admitted brusquely, pique rising. Digory did not appreciate this ongoing criticism of the status of the paperwork on his desk. It was his desk. He knew where everything was that he needed, and usually could find it when he needed it. He didn't particularly care if others could not.

More to the point, Mary was in no position to condemn him and he gave her his most severe frown. “We might have used the older copies in my personal collection but they, regrettably, are at the bottom of the Amazon.”

Mary at least had the good grace to look embarrassed.

“Amazon?” Peter asked. “Why would Duns Scotus’ Questions on Metaphysics be in Brazil? In a river?”

“Now Digs!” Mary huffed, pinking up with embarrassment even over her sunburn. “It was an accident! Ten years ago!”

“This, Peter, is why you must never loan a book to Mary. She has a habit of taking them to the far flung reaches of the globe and feeding them to piranhas and giant snakes that swallow crocodiles whole.”

“Are you finished, Digs?”

“Are you finished criticising my desk?”

“Yes,” Mary muttered meekly.

“Piranhas?” Peter asked. “Could we just return a moment to…”

“No!” Mary said. “It’s very embarrassing and always puts Digs in a surly mood.”

Digory had to agree. “Peter, you should ask Polly about it, as she was there. And as we shall not mount an expedition to retrieve what is certainly ruined, we have attempted to locate the manuscripts missing from the library here.”

He suddenly had a dreadful thought. “Mary, did you remove any of Scotus’ works from the Franciscan collection here?”

She snorted. “Really, Digs, of course not.”

That was a relief and at least ruled out expeditions to the Sahara or Mary’s cellar. "In any event, it took Peter the better part of two weeks, but we did eventually learn that some of the Franciscan library, including a number works by Scotus and Ockham, have been loaned out."

"Ockham! Now that's a loss I do care about. Any idea where they went?"

"To the British Museum," Peter replied gloomily.

"Oh dear," Mary responded. She obviously saw the problem.

"Indeed," Digory echoed the expressed pessimism. "I understand many of the collections have been hidden until the War ends."

"It's not really secret," Mary supplied helpfully. "Forsdyke put a lot of it in underground storage in Bradford. Other material is scattered with FOMs."

"FOMs?" Peter asked.

"Friends of the Museum," Mary and Digory both responded at the same time. Mary continued, "Richard and I have a few things."

"From the British Museum?" Peter asked, wonderment in his tone. "Really?"

"Well, for your sake, I'm sorry but we don't have anything from the Oxford Franciscans. Forsdyke would know better than to give something like that to us."

"If you are as bad about returning historical artifacts as you are about flinging precious books into the Amazon, I'm surprised Forsdyke gave you anything, Mary."

And then anastigmatfic added this highly suggestive bit which had me dying of shock, amazement, and laughter last night. We will just say this is 1947 or 1948?:

When Peter finally had the story from Mary, he couldn't help but laugh. She glared most ferociously, but his time as High King of Narnia had inured him to all manner of stares and scowls and dagger-eyes, and Mary's glare - compared to, say, a Tarkaan deep within the grips of a nearly-forgotten philosophical offense - was almost half as frightening as a kitten batting about a ball of yarn. The harder Peter laughed, the more Mary glared, until she finally rolled her eyes and turfed him off the bed.

"Oof," said Peter. "Your boots aren't half painful."

"Steel capped toes," Mary said primly. "You deserved that, especially after the trouble you've had with the Dread Dunce yourself."

"It's not that," Peter said, clambering to his feet and rubbing a sore spot perilously close to his left kidney. "May I?" he asked, gesturing to the bed.

"Only so that I can shove you away again if you mock me," Mary said, refusing to look at him.

"No," Peter soothed, taking her hand. She didn't pull away: a good sign. "No, no. I'm laughing because I know that you're still offended that he gave you a dressing-down in front of Polly and Asim, and that is why you've always taken a perverse pleasure in stealing his papers."

The silence next to Peter grew petulant. He'd experience with this, too. He waited her out.

"Mostly," Mary finally admitted.

"Mostly?" Peter echoed. "What's the rest of it, then? Oh, don't tell me - you're single-handedly redressing the wrongs done by all those thieving male paleontologists."

This time, a feathered pillow accompanied Peter to the ground.

"Not that I'm against larceny for its own sake," said Peter, removing the same boot from the same sore spot on his back - he was sure it'd bruise delightfully - "and especially not when it's to redress great wrongs. But I'm sure there are better ways to set this right."

"And you'd know all about that," Mary huffed. "You're a King, not an archaeologist. An ex-King."

"Kings know a few things about how to dismantle a revered hero," Peter said. "I think these heroes have it coming, and I think you're just the one to knock the statues down."

"Get the gin while you're down there," Mary finally replied, "and then tell me what you're thinking."

I demanded that Anastigmat write more and she kindly punted it back to me on Twitter with the assertion that she really didn't know the paleos. Which has now led to this. And now satisfies min023’s request for something from AW. It’s not totally AU, but it’s not in the outline and it’s certainly not what I’d intended, either. But, all this comment fic going back and forth is getting me thinking again and I’m calling this a trial balloon. So, let’s test it out and see if it flies or pops.

Peter left the gin bottle where it was. “We shall save it for tonight and toast your success.”

“Or burial,” Mary said gloomily.

He gained his feet with barely a wince and held out his hand. With an aggrieved sniff, Mary took it and allowed him to pull her out of the bed.

“Let’s go downstairs. You can count the number of prints of your article again.”

The forty printed sets of Mary’s article, with contributions by E. C. Scrubb, were on the drawing room table. As expected, she restlessly began fingering them, even though Mr. Patel had been summoned to provide the definitive count.

“You’re nervous about tonight,” Peter said.

“Yes,” Mary admitted, her lips moving as she counted the prints, fifteen, sixteen. “It’s childish to be feeling stage fright. That’s what Richard used to tell me before a big presentation. He loved these meetings.”

Richard Russell cast a larger than life shadow over so many things. Peter had loved Richard until the day he had died, and it was still hard to hear these truths. Eustace was the only one with an unvarnished view of Richard and that was because he had never known Richard when he was well and had then fallen hopelessly in love with the man’s wife.

“Nerves are perfectly reasonable, Mary. You’ve been working on this subject for over five years, you’ve not presented a paper since before the War, and this is the first time you’ve appeared before a scientific society without Richard there.”

The pages stopped fluttering as Mary’s fingers paused. “Have I ever mentioned how alarming it is when you sound as insightful as Lucy?”

“I have my occasional moments,” Peter said. He stood behind her and put a hand on her broad shoulder. She rested her fingers on top of his for a moment then shrugged off to resume her counting.

Seventeen, eighteen…

“For all that we laugh about it now, a dressing down by Professor Digory Kirke isn’t something you’ll ever forget, and you’ll never want a repeat of that sort of experience,” Peter told her. Peculiar a bond though it was, they both knew what it felt of to disappoint the expectations of that great intellect.

“You won’t fail tonight, Mary, but it’s understandable why you are worried that you will.”

“I’ve always tried so hard,” Mary said, twenty-five, twenty-six, and with a fierce act of will and faith, she turned away from the stacked manuscripts before counting them completely to pace the length of the room. “But I’ve always felt the little respect I have earned was due only to Richard. There’s always been the belief that whatever I did was really his work.” She wrapped her arms around herself. “I was just the entertainment,” she grumbled.

He could chase her around the room, or just let her work through it. Peter sat on the divan and Mary would orbit around him. They should probably get out of doors, too. The house was too small a space for Mary today.

“Mary, my father said the word among the scientific publishers and your peer reviewers is that this is the most remarkable article to come out of England since the War. They are calling it groundbreaking work that will spawn a whole new field of study. My father and his fellows intend to come tonight to hear your defence and ask for your autograph.”

Which would be awkward enough that Peter had thought it better if he did not attend at all.

The same thought now occurred to Mary. She stilled her restless pacing. “You’re still coming, aren’t you?” she asked quietly.

“Well, it’s not…”

There was an angry stomp. Her steel toed boots made quite the thump and Peter reconsidered. Those boots in his right kidney would add to the pain in his left that resulted from their previous tussle.

“You are in the acknowledgement, Peter! This would not have existed without you! You were there when I first had the idea and when I had the Eureka moment. Your father made sure I spelled your name right in the footnote!”

“I think he hoped the scientific community would believe he was being acknowledged, rather than his layabout son.”

“Stop that,” Mary snapped, underscoring her objection with a punch to his arm as she stalked passed him. “You were the inspiration and he caught my grammar errors, which I concede, is a heroic effort. He’s envious of you for doing what you want and love, and because he thinks you are cavorting with an older woman.”

“I’m older than you are!” Peter insisted. And really, this was about Mary’s anxiety and not the strained relationship with his father. “And you are much, much younger than my usual.”

“I’m also not a tree,” Mary replied.

He snagged her sleeve as she paced by. “For which I am so very grateful.”

Mary squeezed his hand in return. “I don’t make Edmund sneeze in spring and I don’t sleep all winter.”

She resumed her restless pacing. Peter put his feet up on the table, nowhere near the 40 precious copies of the article to be presented to the Royal Geography Society, and waited.

“If your father is envious of you, I find I’m envious of Eustace,” Mary said eventually.

And here they came to the crux of her anxiety and anger and what had started the tussling that had landed him on the floor with a boot to his back. “Since he is male, recognition is certainly coming far more easily for him than it ever did for you.”

Mary sighed wearily. “Thank you, Peter, for understanding that.”

“Yet, in spite of your envy, you still are sharing publication credit with Eustace and sponsoring him. That’s very generous of you, Mary.”

“People say things like that and I wonder, what would someone do in the alternative? Let’s have a cheer because I did the right thing?”

Mary stopped at the picture window and dug her hands into her pockets for a humbug. She scowled. “I’m all out. Do you have any?”

“Sorry, no, you cleaned me out yesterday.”

She tugged absently at her baggy trousers. “Susan is coming over with some clothes to help me dress for tonight so I’m not wearing khakis, a Chinese gown, or Richard’s castoffs.”

Peter felt his irritation automatically rise with mention of Susan. “I’ll make myself scarce then.”

Mary started to say something, to gently reprimand him, again, but it was not the time or the place for revisiting this issue either. He shook his head. “Not now, Mary. Please?” His opinions of the course the Gentle Queen of Narnia had continued to pursue irked him no end. What was done, was done, and had been done in pursuit of an Allied victory and Peter would never fault anyone for it. However, the War was over and it was time they left all that business behind them. Without that nobility of purpose the War had given them, it was just ugly.

And finally, the restless energy that fueled Mary quieted and she plopped down next to him on the poor, abused divan.

Her head fell on to his shoulder and she laced her fingers in his. “You were right. Ex-king…”

“Ex-High King,” Peter corrected

She laughed, as he had intended and a warmth broke through her worry. “Ex-High Kings do know something about knocking heroes off pedestals, after all. I apologize for doubting you. I do want to shove off the dais those old men with the endowed chairs and abundant grants. Or, well, get a seat next to them.”

“You will.”

“Thank you, ex-High King.”

“You are welcome.”

“Shall we take the horses out? See what the eagles are doing? Look in on your many projects and see if anyone needs a hand?”

"Excellent idea!" Peter stood and took her hand in his. Russell House was not his castle, its lady was not his Queen, yet England was his kingdom, of a sort.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Reading this makes me want to see the scene in which Mary learns the Secret. She seems to have taken it all in stride, judging how easily she bring up Peter's former life as a ~~King~~ High King, and even mentioning Dinan. (So... is Peter technically older than Mary here? I've always wondered about the age difference between Mary and the Pevensies.)

And oh, Susan! How can Peter see Susan like that when (or is it "if") Edmund is also involved in such things as well? I don't know how much of this will actually be canon to what's to come in AW, but I am kind of mad at Peter about his treatment of Susan. Assuming Edmund partakes of Rat and Crow in England, I feel that Peter is acting a lot like those men that Mary dislikes -- how it is the men who get credit for discoveries and such while women are/should take a back seat.

And the mention of Mr. Pevensie is interesting. Still not quite approving of his eldest son's choices in life, and yet there is an envious aspect to it all as well.

I wonder if Edmund is just more subtle about it? Susan seems more inclined to press the point and try to convince Peter she is right. Which probably leaves Edmund in the middle. Otherwise Peter *is* acting like those men Mary dislikes.

I'm quite intrigued by this. It's hard to say if I think the outline should be bent in this direction, because we don't know where it was going before (except Not Here). It's odd to read the Peter/Mary relationship from the AU juxtaposed with the tragic arc between Peter and Susan from the main plot. (Ruth, you have created not just a spin-off universe, but a multiverse!)

I'm also intrigued as to the state of Eustace- hopelessly in love with Mary who is with Peter. Did that come from the commentfic as well? I hope he gets some sort of resolution (with someone else) before the train wreck. Bah. I need to get back to that Eustace and Jill surviving the last battle story that is resisting me.

Eustace's infatuation with Mary hit me when I wrote them in the Museum together in AW. This is one where I think I've not done enough with Mary because in my head, she's very kind about it and I'm not sure readers would see her that way. It also underscores why in the actual story, a relationship between Peter and Mary would be such a really, REALLY bad thing -- Eustace is just one of the many potential victims. As I said, trial balloon -- I've been really interested in this AU stuff since these two characters have spent way more words together in the AU than in the story proper. Others have written more of Peter and Mary in the same scene than I have.

The trick with Peter and Susan's disagreement has always been to pull it off without Peter being pompous and without Susan being an idiot. The reaction here indicates that's an area that requires a lot more refinement. And Edmund... well, I'm not saying anything about that.

There's also... gosh, how to put this... I'm putting warts on canon characters. Over the multiverse/spin off/AU/TSG etc. etc. I think Peter has probably escaped the most unscathed, other than being really thick about what Aslan wants him to do. His desire to chart a clear moral path is evidenced in that last chapter with Susan in AW and he's not being judgmental, yet, but he's coming across pretty heavy handed. I think that's hard to read -- it's certainly hard to write.

And yes, you do need to get back to that last battle story! Hey! mini-big bang!? 10,000 words??? yes?

I think the discussion between Peter and Susan in AW (where they drink whiskey and keep stealing each other's seats) got your point across very well, and with only the hints of anything unpleasant about Peter's inflexibility. At that point, he's still questioning it himself, but finds the justifications to be very situational. Susan always takes a broader view, and is therefore less likely to find anything justifiable in one situation but not in others. Hmm.. that doesn't sound quite right and I don't think I'm getting my interpretation across, but hopefully you get the point that I think that development in AW has been effective and readable to date.

As for the mini-big bang, I'm definitely thinking about it. At the moment, I need to clear out some other obligations before I can commit to a timetable, which is part of what is delaying me in general. Those obligations are fun, but, um... obligatory :-)

Some parts of this are seriously waaay off the outline and others have been there for a very long time. This was very much a trial balloon. I'm really floundering and so putting things out there and seeing the reaction is interesting and helpful. The reaction to Peter's condemnation of Susan (and the comparison to Edmund and his and Mary's condemnation of the old dinosaurs in her field) is particularly interesting.

Age wise, I've put Mary at about her mid-twenties in 1942 -- say 25 or 26. Assuming Peter was at least in his late 20s or early 30s when he left Narnia, yeah, he and Susan are both older than Mary.

I've had certain scenes with Mr. P in my head and outline for about 3 years now. I feel like I'll never get to them, but they are there.

Oooh that last bit - I'm intrigued by this view of later on, because it's ... hmmmm it's really interesting!

*ponders*

yeah, I'm pondering too.!

Now this is interesting. I'm not much of a Peter/Mary shipper, but it's enjoyable as written here. There are some very intriguing hints of what is yet to come (or what has already been). Given your comments above, I'm not clear to what extent this complies with the head canon, but I like the idea of where some of this could go.

It's a trial balloon and some of it is very consistent with the outline and other bits not at all. Peter's tension with his father and Susan have already been set out in AW; Eustace's future infatuation with Mary is also there. The rest, not so much, or not at all.

Oh so intriguing! I'm really curious what the topic of the paper was. Also, dittoing the comments above as regard wanting to see The Reveal. As always, good stuff, and I can't wait to see what you turn out next!
~LotL

Hi there! Nice of you stop by!! The topic of the paper has been hinted at errrr.... counting... twice? three times? It's there. It's been there for a really, REALLY long time!!! I have been writing (a lot actually) just not AW, including two stories for the NFE and two for femgen. Thanks so much for weighing in.

Yay Apostolic Way! Except Peter and Susan are on the outs! I am besaddened!

(Also, I might have just finished the last of the Pisco.)

The last of the Pisco! Oh no! Why is all the Pisco gone?

The Pisco is gone (she says with an attempt at dignity) because I have limes and eggs and sugar. And bitters. And thus a Pisco sour was required.

NOM.

NOM

Such great Peter and Mary interaction! But oh, how can he be so insightful and supportive of Mary and so dismissive of Susan? Peter! I want to shake my fist at you!

Heh. Yep, Peter's not showing to a particular advantage here. Particularly if the assumption is that he's somehow not condemning Edmund and supporting Mary and criticizing Susan. Not pretty. Oh Peter, Your Most High King Thickness

As an AU - yes.
As the part of main story - no. It is much to clearly far from where the story has been going. I can hardly see what could you put in the middle to make characters' words and bahaviour fit their words and behaviour in SG Oxfordshire, TQSiT and AW. And even if you would write something that would make it fit, it wouldn't necessarily be the most realistic course of events. And I'm not sure if you would like all the consequences of that.
Krystyna

Thanks for weighing in Krystyna. I saw your other comment and congratulations on your move! I was thinking about your comment about "I love not man less but nature more" that it was impossible for you to review it. I've gotten that comment a lot. I've also concluded that a lot of my regular readers object to the content but don't want to criticize and so say nothing.

They may not object, they may simply not be able to comfortably say anything of substance. That's not the same thing as objecting or disliking the material. There were things I considered saying in my response that I trimmed as simply TMI (in my case, I did not wish to push boundaries further than the story itself did- given an interested and comfortable audience well outside of a work environment, I'll happily discuss quite a bit).

Or maybe they do object. It's hard for me to tell sometimes. Here in San Francisco, today was the Folsom Street Fair, the city-sanctioned and enthusiastically marketed leather/fetish fair that takes over five or six large city blocks. For several weeks leading up to it, you'll see the BDSM pride flag up and down Market St. (kind of like the gay pride flag, but black and blue stripes, with a red heart in the corner). I didn't go this year, but that's just because I've seen it before many times and don't like crowds. I forget what it's like to live in an environment where people aren't so open about sexuality (in many forms).

>I've gotten that comment a lot.
I'm not surprised.
>I've also concluded that a lot of my regular readers object to the content but don't want to criticize and so say nothing.
I suppose that in many cases it is just that they feel as I do - that it would be much better to talk about it during long late evening chat.
Krystyna

Things have moved quite a bit beyond Florida and 'It,' eh? I like it. It's calm. It's building things up to the train wreck in a decent and thoroughly enjoyable way. I am wondering about Peter's attitude towards Susan, though; after the Great Bonding and the three of them cavorting with Dryads while Edmund sneezes, it can't be the sex. Can it? Or is it just the deceit and skullduggery involved? If it's that, how could Peter have such a double standard, given that Edmund is working with Susan? It sounds like there's something more, something else going on between him and Susan that is fomenting under it all.

Or maybe as he ages and becomes more involved with Spare Oom again, some inherently suburban, conservative Finchley-esque values are asserting themselves. And if that's the case, why would Lucy and Edmund accept Susan's deposition? If it happens at all? Accepting that this is sort of a blurry border between AW and AU, Hmmmmm to it all...

HMMM indeed. The reaction to Peter here and his treatment of Susan has been very interesting and that reflects a need for further refinement. That's always been one of the hardest parts of the story.

I posted above that insofar as Peter and Mary are concerned, this shows 1)why in the actual story it would be such a really terrible idea; and 2) that in terms of the words with the two of them together, others have written more of them than I have, and what's in the AU is way WAY more than what's in TSG. Funny, I finally get back to AW, Lionsgate, I remember now that I did promise to write a scene with just the two of them. Gosh, maybe I don't have to do that now, or maybe I do, from Peter's pov to show very precisely what is NOT happening.

Late to the comment party...

Yes, as much as I am a secret Mary/Peter shipper... it's still really jarring to see something like this! I was always under the impression that you had other things in store for Peter in that regard... That being said, I have always loved their interaction.

And now after reading this, I almost wish I would have requested that scene in which Mary learns in this little mini-challenge that's going around! It's such a tricky subject in fic when "outsiders" learn of Narnia, and it can either be done really well, or... well, yeah...

I say almost wish I would've requested, 'cause, hey... Peridan. ;-)

Actually, that's started a very interesting train of thought. While it's undoubtedly well-written, there is a dissonance that I found a bit jarring as well, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was.

The 'other things in store' reminded me that you've said in the past that Mary 's resemblance to Dinan means a big, fat nothing. So, reading Peter as madly in love with Mary is slightly off-putting in a way that I couldn't previously articulate.

Re Peter and Susan, I figured that it was at least partially to do with the way that siblings that are close in age can be judgemental towards each other. Yes it's more common between siblings of the same gender, but closeness in age is also a factor.

Your comments above also got me to thinking, so OK, Peter is making unfortunate judgements about Susan's career choices. But is there any of that happening in reverse? Susan was keen to push Peter towards something in the US, so what assumptions or judgements has Susan been making?

Given Susan's single-mindedness when it comes to Rat and Crow business, I have been sort of assuming all along that the problem is with both of them: Susan pushing Peter to get involved in things that make him horribly uncomfortable, as well as sort of shoving her involvement in his face, trying to force him to acknowledge the necessity of it and to hear him say he accepts it. Peter, being both stubborn and the High King, doesn't exactly respond well to this, and so ends up being more critical of her than maybe he would otherwise.

Which would also explain the difference in Peter's attitude between Susan and Edmund - Edmund respects Peter's boundaries (limitations?), and doesn't flaunt the Rat and Crow business in his face, nor does he try to manipulate Peter into doing what he, Edmund, thinks is best (or if he does, he is better at it). Whereas Susan can't keep herself from thinking she knows best how everyone's life ought to be run, and if they don't get there on their own, well, it's up to her to shove them in the right direction. Result: tension!

I asked the question below of making the distinction -- there is whether Peter's seeming double standard is consistent with his character as written or whether it is out of character. I will say that folks are making some assumptions about Edmund. But taking out the seeming hypocrisy, does it make sense that Peter and Susan would be at odds over this? That regardless of what was done in Narnia, what he perceives is being done now strikes him as immoral as much as it strikes Susan as a morally necessary -- the dirty necessity of espionage vs the battle against communism. Is that a legitimate, credible tension?

So, reading Peter as madly in love with Mary is slightly off-putting in a way that I couldn't previously articulate.

Yes, I actually feel the same about this as well. I think watching them together throughout TSG has been wonderful, a bit like student/mentor or even peers (as they are/were both Digory's students), so it's hard for me to ever picture them in a relationship that is more than that. Also, Edmund had worried about such things back in the early chapters and both Lucy and Peter had said he [Edmund] was worrying over nothing.

This is just fascinating. When I hammered this out in an hour or so, I'd not thought it through much. I thought Ana's thing was suggestive and thought I'd tease it out another few thousand words and see where it went. We'll definitely chalk this up as a, "whoa, where did THAT come from? Rth, time to put the coffee down." Again, as with what Edmund is doing, there are lots of assumptions being made and I'm really intrigued by what people are reading between the lines. I learn so much from people! I keep thinking, Did I do that? Did I intend that? I didn't write that, did I? Oh, maybe I did. Gosh, where did that come from?

I think in the end, what you and

anastigmatfic wrote about Peter and Mary could possibly work in the Last Battle AU fic/commentfic but it just seems out of character for them in the normal TSG universe. :-)

(Btw, this was the perfect thing to get my head out of "Doctor Who". I needed something to drag me back into Narnia and all this discussion about Peter, Mary and Susan was the thing to do it.)

Also late to the party - and also very much an awkward newbie to commenting on this thoroughly amazing verse, but I had Thoughts.

On Peter's seeming double standard towards Susan's behavior vs Edmund's, I do wonder if it might not have something to do with their roles in Narnia, where Peter always knew Edmund was his 'logistics man,' doing all the uglier Rat and Crow things Peter didn't want to know about. Whereas while he obviously knew Susan was involved in it as well, perhaps he saw her more as a partner in the more high and noble aspects of everything? And so now in England he's disappointed that she doesn't share those same ideals, where he always knew that Edmund didn't. Still sexist of him of course, but for me at least that makes it more understandable.

Hey there and welcome! When and how did you come on board? What have you read? I never know these things unless someone tells me! I know you wrote that cool AU with Edmund and Susan remaining behind!

I've found these discussion really interesting. People are making certain assumptions and I'm finding the assumptions about Edmund especially intriguing. Peter and Edmund did discuss this ambiguity back in TQSiT and Susan and Edmund discussed it in AW. Edmund and Peter discussed how he used to deliver to Peter the truth or the lie and that he would never lie to Peter, which raised the issue of whether Peter would ask. So, there's the question of whether this seems out of character for Peter or whether it is in character but just objectionable to readers -- in short, people are mad at him and how do readers feel about being mad at the High King? Does it make sense? I'm just "thinking aloud" here.

I don't think it's necessarily that Peter is out of character. We've seen his views on the world and life change over the course of the summer in TSG (such as the warning Edmund gives Susan that the High King with his many titles have suddenly become anti-colonial).

Maybe it is because Peter doesn't know everything that's going on. He knows in Narnia, Edmund and Susan were involved in those grey areas of right and wrong and they did it to protect their home and people. As you state in TQSiT, Edmund would not lie to Peter if asked and yet, Peter seemed to prefer to not know about all those things his siblings did to keep things safe. So I think his impression of Susan's work is influenced by how much/little he actually knows. In the end, what Susan is doing Here is the same as what she was doing There -- the same reasons, the same goals. The only difference is that she's now serving England instead of Narnia, and he should remember that England will forever be Home now that they're not allowed to return to their kingdom.

(I hope that came out clearly.. I'm having trouble trying to articulate my thoughts on this very well.)

Very clear! You are so wonderful. I so appreciate you sharing your thoughts on all this.

Thanks for the welcome! I came on board through the comment fic posted in the Last Battle AU community; I enjoyed it lots but was terribly confused by it until I finally dug around in your journal last week, found the links for TSG, and read all three parts in about four days. Obviously, I enjoyed it, and will do my best to go back and comment at some point.

I don't think Peter is ooc at all either -

autumnia expressed very well what I was trying to say above. Then again, I've also never minded being mad at Peter when he's wrong, which he clearly is here.

I am interested to see if there is a point at which Peter would ask Edmund to lie rather than know what he's really been up to; if there is a point where Peter has that same 'I don't want to see you doing ugly things' attitude towards Edmund that he seems to have towards Susan.

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed them! The AU comm is hopefully broader than the fic of fic spawn of TSG. I do hope others add other things to it!!

Sorry to interrupt a discussion that has gotten far deeper than what I had so far considered with this piece, BUT...

Does it make sense to be mad at the High King?

Of course! He is not Aslan (and even Aslan accepts his subjects' anger... thinking of Morgan and a candlestick here), and he can be blind, stubborn, misguided, and frustrating like any other person. People are so often frustrated with anyone who is holier-than-thou (which Peter, I believe, is definitively NOT) -as well as with anyone so firmly convinced of their point of view that they have blinders on with regards to anything else. Perhaps it's almost easier to be frustrated with Peter, because he normally is so right, that any flaw to be noticed rubs raw, out of proportion to its actual size.

I see Peter in some ways as a contradiction. He is so open-minded on some things (anti-colonial king!?), and on others he just can't step out of his own boots and consider other paths. We've seen that going back to his struggles between Richard and Digory, his calling versus his schooling. He sees one path forward and will not deviate from it, because he knows it is right--he can't quite consider that there might be other sorts of right, equally valid but different. One might say that he learned this in Narnia, so why did he forget? I don't think he's forgotten, but I think we underestimate how difficult it is to see the way forward to applying that lesson to Spare Oom situations. Lucy is much better at that; I think she doesn't separate the worlds so much as her siblings do. It doesn't have to be one or the other for her; Narnia and Spare Oom coexist in the present, in her heart. She hears the voices, while for Edmund and Susan Narnia must be relegated to past (relevent or not). And Peter's still struggling to figure out when Narnia is applicable, and when it must be set aside. He's very black and white--spying during the war was regrettable but necessary, but now it's done. Finis. He's always had a trouble with gray areas--both a strength and a weakness. A good friend of mine is quite similar. I love her, I admire her, and she frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. All of which is the long way around to saying--is it ok to be mad at the High King? Of course! Someone who's always right in everything is not only a bit of a bore, but alien enough that he would be hard to love. And that is just about opposite to the essence of Peter.

~Syrena

Thank you so much, for this post and the one you just made. I've been swimming in doubts of the highly negative variety-tear-it-all-down-go-to-ground-like-I-did-in-1996 and I really, really appreciate this. I hope that you'll eventually consider, amidst your many other obligations, setting up some sort of anon account, whether on LJ, as a fake email, or an ff.net account and we can take it off line sometimes. If you wish, of course. For now, again, thank you. I wallow about and then I see something like this and realize that folks really have read a whole lot and are really trying to pull things together and it's very humbling. Thanks again.

Re Edmund, I'm not sure what to think except that we know he has an interest in and aptitude for Rat and Crow. That said, if I have the dates more or less correct, he is 13 years old in 1942, making 15 or maybe 16 at the end of the war. No matter how desperate the Allies were, I simply cannot imagine them using a 13 or 14 year old boy as an active agent - training, yes, but active duty just doesn't seem that plausible to me.

So that's one potential point of difference between Peter/Susan and Peter/Edmund. If we continue to work on the assumption that Edmund is destined for the intelligence service, then the fact that he would still be training (and therefore it's all still theoretical) while Susan is active duty, could be enough to trigger two different reactions in Peter (and that's assuming he's not equally disapproving of Edmund's choices).

I have been thinking about the earlier posts, and the more I think about it, the less I can accept that some sort of latent sexism is responsible for his attitudes. The Pevensies spent 15 years in Narnia, and on my reading of your 'verse, they were living daily with the example of capable females doing the same work as males, based on aptitude and skill. I cannot imagine how a few years back in Spare Oom, even during wartime, would reverse the ingrained thinking habits of a lifetime. And that's especially true in that the Pevensies have always appeared to embrace their differences, rather than deny them and conform to the expected.

So that's a very longwinded way of saying that whatever is between Peter and Susan, I don't buy that there is something gender-related driving it.

for all the reasons you've stated, we don't know what Edmund is doing after the war other than presumably still in school. The sexism others have expressed is perhaps more in the nature of hypocrisy and double standard -- the implication is that he's OK with it for Edmund but not Susan?

Thank you for coming back and continuing to follow all this! I really appreciate it!

I came back to add a second (and last) comment: I've been thinking about this balloon, and it's odd, but the overall feeling I get from it is "oh, how suburban they've both become." Even though their personalities, goals and differences are still so present, and they haven't changed as characters at all - the dynamic itself as portrayed almost approaches, oh I don't know, banal.

Someone above mentioned jarring. Yes, it is jarring. Not at first - I like it as prose and it is, as always, superbly written, but the aftertaste hasn't been so good. Not enough magic? Too much Spare Oom? Even with Mary knowing about Narnia, something is missing.

Yes, I think we'll just chalk this up to following a thread 1,000 words too far. As I said, this wasn't something I had in the outline and it sure isn't going in it now!!!

*sigh of relief*

This is all partly my responsibility, though, as one of the instigators of the Peter/Mary ship leaving the shore. Sometimes I've been almost giggly with what has come ("IT" Oh my), and this was a valiant effort to make something sensible happen.

Madre del amor, me encantaaaaa! Love it. LOVE. To be honest, I never really thought poor Mary would get let in on The Secret, and I never thought poor Peter would get past her being Richard's wife (loyalty and self-sacrifice and all that). Even if this trial balloon never floats into the actual story, it's been wonderful to see them together. My secret is out: I ship Peter and Mary. And this is perfect, down to the steel-toed interaction and gentle reprimands from both sides.

They should adopt a camel.

~Syrena

Rth, I'm aghast to hear you're feeling like going to ground. Please don't do it! I'll have kittens if I can't find out what happens in AW.

As always, your work is superbly written and it's intriguing to see this side of the characters, but I'll tell you why it doesn't work for me. Firstly, I feel Peter is too old, too mature for Mary. Although he's a schoolboy, she's beset by insecurities and doubts and is so full of fire and anger and angst, what with being a woman in a man's world and having to prove herself all the time - it makes a girl defensive and who can blame her? She is still on her quest, but Peter - he's arrived, and is looking for something deeper. Which path to follow out of the many that present themselves? Peter, for me, has always seemed to be more adult, more certain, than Mary, which for me explains why she's been so intrigued by these Pevsnees and why, sometimes, she's lashed out at P. Kind of a frustrated: 'You're so much younger, what is it you have that makes you so certain, and why do you have it if I DON'T?'

I personally see Peter with an older woman, a real equal, someone with a great deal of power and poise. For some reason I keep picturing a really glamorous Russian or Frenchwoman, mid-forties, maybe an ex-diplomat or government official who fled to England during the war or during the Stalinist purges...? Maybe she's Susan's contact in the Resistance!!! For me, Peter will always be looking for a Dalia equivalent, someone with the intellect and power and poise to meet him at his own level and challenge the High King as an equal... and for me, that woman will be older, and that woman cannot be Mary. Part of what makes Mary so wonderful is her passion and her frustration and hidden insecurities, and she and Peter would never work because he would have to mentor her where what he REALLY needs is someone to shake him up a bit and force him not to be the High Kingiest of Kings and Always Bloody Right all the time.

And the other reason this jars for me is because, well, Peter is not extraordinary *because* he went to Narnia. He and all the others went to Narnia because they are extraordinary, and what they learnt there made them more so. So the mention of Dinan, Mary referring to him as 'High King' - for me, it's irrelevant. I think about Peter sitting Mary down and saying 'Right, I'm going to tell you the secret, how I came to be as I am...' and it doesn't make sense that he says 'I used to be a king in Narnia.' It almost explains all the interesting parts away. i don't think she needs to know the story of how Peter - or any of the Pevensies - came to be as they are. The fact is they are here and they are living amazing lives here. They aren't looking backward to Narnia, but forward at this wild world of Spare Oom.

On Peter and Susan - I wonder if a conflict over sexuality might be an issue in their estrangement. Susan has a matter-of-fact attitude to sex and has shown that she's not afraid to use herself as bait for the good of the cause - whether that's through marriage in a game of thrones with Rabadash or enticing Tebbit to screw up his courage in Washington (no pun intended). Peter strikes me as a bit of a romantic who thinks it should only ever be about love - even if not love of each other, then love of sex, love of companionship? And he sees things in black and white - he just can't see how Susan can't adhere to his beliefs. Not that I'm suggesting Susan is some sort of seductive spy whose only talent is being sexy - but maybe she's used her wiles on occasion, and Peter has judged her for it. I see parallels with old debates between feminists about whether high heels and make up are empowering or a tool of women's subjugation - and given Peter's new commitment to anticolonialism, I can see him having quite Dworkin-esque views, in comparison to Susan who's willing to work within established patterns of domination if it's for a cause she believes in.

Bottom line is, if anyone can think so deeply about stories and characters created in your mind, your writing must be pretty amazing. So don't run away!

Flavia

Thank you, Flavia.

I'm slowly picking up AW and am about 7,000 words into it. This part is hard because I'd never intended to do all this, and now I'm writing -- or very near to writing -- a war story -- and that's daunting. It was all going to end where Part 1 did -- Mary and Asim waving good bye to Peter and then pick up in 1946 with Peter and Digory on their way to Russell House with a group of Trils.

I also have, gosh probably 30,000 words written of Harold and Morgan. I wish AW were going faster and I really don't want to disappoint people. It's not the story it was intended to be, and that's a good thing and is completely due to readers. And that I have no discipline.

The basis for Susan and Peter's split is already in the story. It's been there since TQSiT. Oddly this was one of the things were there was a massive departure for the better from the original story as I initially had not intended to tell Susan's story at all until after the crash. I was going to go a traditional route with Susan and then kill everyone and then pick her up and help her find friends and meaning and full life. Mary (who was to be Digory and Polly's executor) and Asim were going to meet her at the solicitor's office -- never having met her before -- and then go with her to the graveyard and thus begins their relationship and I had a whole thing with them going to Rome and Istanbul and drinking espresso in the middle of the night above the Spanish Steps and in the shadow of the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Instead, when readers saw my initial idea for Mr. Pevensie in Part 1 and asked, "Gosh, so what is Susan doing?!" I thought, well, errrr, yeah! espionage!!! I only went there because readers asked. I have no regrets. I love this story arc. But I never would have gone there without readers asking about her.

Anyway, I do get down about things -- the messages that I'm doing it wrong, etc. They come in waves and they tend to come, ironically, when I'm less equipped to deal with it. Things have been better so yeah for all that! Thanks so much!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Not AU exactly -- AW through a blurry, malfunctioning telescope

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