Narnia writers, do you know where your stories are?

[rthstewart]

lady_songsmith drew my attention to something today and has just posted about it here. A new blogger, Narnian Caparison, is blogging about Narnia, reccing her favorite fics, providing nice links to those works and discussion, and also compiling the stories into downloadable pdf "books." Further, the blogger states: Stories may have been edited for spelling, punctuation, minor grammatical issues, or clarity.

Now, this blogger has good taste. From my F-list, she has works on her site in downloadable format by: lady_songsmith ilysia_039 cofax7 snacky andi_horton edenfalling autumnia harmony_lover

I did not know she had included my story, Under Cover. in her Book 7 until I saw it there. I don't know if she edited it for "spelling, punctuation, minor grammatical issues, or clarity" as I didn't download her pdf and do a line by line comparison. snacky and lady_songsmith didn't know their stories had been included either.

I've been getting seriously beaten over the head and the blogger has only put up one of my stories, and so I'm not going to engage on this [edit -- but got irritated at some of the responses when I had assumed and hoped this would all be very civil and so have made one comment on her site]. You might feel differently about it. snacky pointed out that the blogger seems well intentioned and I agree. I appreciate what she is doing. [edit -- subsequent posts the blogger has made have regrettably indicated otherwise]. It's the editing of someone's work, or the potential use of someone's fanart without permission, that might be troubling to someone.

Thanks to lady_songsmith for pointing it out!

Comments

[snacky]

I did leave a comment suggesting it's better to ask permission before offering someone's work for download, and that it's frowned on in fandom to edit other people's work without their okay.

Like I said to you, I am not particularly bothered by the inclusion of my story in a file for download (these things happen all the time), but I do get a little twitchy at the editing bit.

[cofax7]

Yeah, I did note that only the first three compilations have the PDF option--the rest of them link directly to the FFN sites. So she's only edited fewer than half (if she did it at all).

But as you say, it's just not done that way.

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, that's crazy about the editing stories... correcting spelling and punctuation seems innocent enough, but sometimes, especially under the "grammar" umbrella, a lot of it can be an intentional artistic choice. (Says someone who abuses ellipses.) And don't get me started on "clarity"...

And boo to being beaten over the head. How about this: you're doing it perfectly right and you're making (at least) me most comfortable with where you're taking the stories! Just keep doing what you've been doing and have aimed to do all along... it hasn't failed you yet!

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Based on what edenfalling found in the first pdf's, it goes even beyond cosmetic editing to removal of italics and author's notes. I think she's well-meaning, but that goes too far.

[edenfalling]

I... you know, there are a couple of my Harry Potter and Naruto stories out on the internet on websites where I have no control over them -- I can't edit them or anything -- but the people who run those sites asked me for permission before they posted the fics. I was never asked about these pdf files. That does not make me happy.

From a quick glance over the three of my stories in her Book 1, I don't think she's changed my phrasing or punctuation. What she HAS done is remove all my italics. I think she has removed everybody's italics, in fact. This seems to be a stylistic quirk of hers, since she's clearly perfectly capable of putting all author names in italics right under the story titles. (Dammit, I already remove at least a third of my italics between rough and final drafts. Any that survive the winnowing are there for a reason. *sulks*)

She has also removed all author's notes, which means the stories are presented completely without context. That upsets me even more than the loss of my italics.

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Italics-removal would make me quite upset, considering I am extremely deliberate in when/how I use them. It could be a copy/paste issue in which they just get lost and forgotten... not that that is an excuse.

[be-themoon.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry things are rough for you right. Lots and lots of hugs for you, and if you ever want to talk I'm around. <33333

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

thanks, but there's nothing for it. I'm getting a lot of thundering, disapproving silence, "You're doing it wrong," and "Liked it, BUT...." and words like pathetic, out of character, and gratuitous, "Lewis would not approve," "I had to skip that part," "I didn't know what to say so I didn't say anything," and the like. The "idiot" is reserved for RL and I've been hearing a lot of that, too.

[sedri.livejournal.com]

This would upset me deeply, were my stories being redistributed like that, and in that light, I'm upset on behalf of all the authors who just found out. I've nothing against recommending stories, and I certainly agree that this blogger means well, but I don't think she realises how many rules she's breaking - unspoken and otherwise. Were these copyrighted works, she would be up to her ears in cease-and-desist letters, and if anyone wanted to (and let me add, I'm very sure they won't), they could get her in legal trouble anyway. I know that won't happen and I don't want it to happen, but breaking the 'rules' of fandom this way ruffles my feathers and...

Well, it's just rude, isn't it?

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Based on what edenfalling found out, she either deliberately or as a result of the interface, stripped out italics and author's notes. songsmith pointed out also that given the idea of collecting works into a single pdf, downloadable file, you immediately create yet another barrier to leaving feedback. She encourages everyone to leave feedback and I don't know "who" she is as there's no moniker or handle, but hers isn't a name I recognize and I doubt she's left any FB for the stories she's compiling and reccing.

[cofax7]

Well-intentioned or not, I do not think it's appropriate to edit someone's work without telling them.

(And I'm a bit surprised my vanity-googling never turned her up.)

Off to investigate.

[cofax7]

I've been getting seriously beaten over the head in both fandom (I'm doing it wrong and making people uncomfortable)

Feh. You're not. You've been around the block (as have I & Snacky) and you're so not. Do what makes you comfortable, try not to pee in anyone's cheerios, and let the rest go.

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up. Like I said in my reply to Snacky, I only saw PDFs for the first three compilations; maybe she's taking them down?

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Like I said in my reply to Snacky, I only saw PDFs for the first three compilations; maybe she's taking them down?

She has a lot of recent stories up, including a lot of the NFEs. It's a new site and I suspect she just hasn't gotten around to it. Downloading all those stories, formatting them to her liking, converting them and uploading them takes time.

[min023.livejournal.com]

Oh, OW!!!! I know many of you post your stories as non-attribution, etc., but as a librarian (hello, copyright) who works in an intellectual property agency, this kind of thing makes me want to run for the hills, screaming all the way. That's just seems rude on so many levels.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does break a lot of those rules of net-iquette. And I feel badly in part because I think she seems like a thoughtful and learned person. Admittedly a lot of the work she loves is written and/or enjoyed by those who think I'm the Great Satan (present company excluded). I may not like what she's doing with stories -- particularly the stripping out of A/N, but if someone took one of my stories and reposted it under his or her handle in overt plagiarism, even then I wouldn't do anything about it. But I do have a different view of this.

[amine-eyes.livejournal.com]

Yay for being interested, not so yay, for the editing of the fic and doing so without permission.

Just - it's a common rule of fandom-ing for a reason, to ask.

Back to the Blaghness - *squishes* In no way, shape, or form, are you doing RL or fandom wrong. IDIC for both cases. And I will cause mental pain to those who say otherwise :)

[min023.livejournal.com]

And we all say "hear, hear" to that

[elouise82.livejournal.com]

Since she didn't include any of my stories, I felt pretty safe in leaving her a general, friendly, "hey you probably don't know this but not saying if you have permission, or not getting that permission, is considered a big NO, so for your own sake you might want to do that" comment in the "welcome" part of her site. It's awaiting moderation; we'll see if she takes it to heart or not.

And Ruth, if you are making people uncomfortable, I'd say you are doing something RIGHT.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I did not see yours, either, but I figured it was only a matter of time before she included yours given her preferences. She likes andi_horton's work and if she followed Andi's favs, or mine, that would bring her to you pretty quickly. There are a couple of other authors that I expected to see, but haven't made it yet.

[autumnia]

Saw this post and lady_songsmith's late last night, but was too tired to comment. At any rate, I do agree with most of the comments above. While I don't necessarily mind links to and hosting the stories, I'd prefer if she had asked for permission first. The whole editing portion of it bothers me, though, since there's a point to why I'm emphasizing bits of text in the first place.

Having done the whole 'host a very large archive' in the past, the only things we 'edited' were to include a standard disclaimer if none was given and make the formatting consistent with a template we used across the site. We didn't strip out author's notes or any bold, italics or separators that were in the original story.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Having done the whole 'host a very large archive' in the past, the only things we 'edited' were to include a standard disclaimer if none was given and make the formatting consistent with a template we used across the site. We didn't strip out author's notes or any bold, italics or separators that were in the original story.
Yes, that's what I've seen as well. I do feel badly about this. She seems like a great addition to the Narnia fen, she's got great taste in fic, she obviously reads a lot, and it would be nice to have another "grown up" in the mix. This just wasn't the best way to call attention to her presence -- or, heh, to be more cynical than I actually am, maybe it was -- it's certainly been effective in increasing hits to her blog!

[lady_songsmith]

I hadn't noticed the italics being stipped -- that does bother me; I choose them for a reason. (I can be a bit over-happy with them, but I'm working on it.)

As for 'doing it wrong' - I'm one to talk given my post, but I really don't think you are. And I would reiterate that I think you might be overreading some comments. Just as an example, that one with 'pathetic' in it read as "poor Edmund, Holder of Bags" more than "god, woman, these titles you're using are pathetic."

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, because the whole idea of what this person is doing isn't bad on the whole. If it weren't for the editing and the no-permission, this would be quite a nice site. (Sure, it does lean towards one type of story but the stories listed are all very good ones.

However, as there is this editing thing going on, not to mention the lack of permission, I'm not impressed. It's a pretty neat idea to make compilations, but to not ask permission? And to change the very story? Not impressed. I didn't see anything of mine there but I know that if I had - gah. I use italics for a purpose and to remove them changes the very flow (and look) of the sentence.

I'm a little tempted to leave a quick comment on her site about it but - uh, I don't know. Maybe not. We'll see.

Actually, I'm very curious about who she is. I'm assuming she doesn't write fic because otherwise there would be a page on her site about it, but I do wonder if she has a ff.net account for reviewing purposes? Hm.

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

Also. I'm sorry you're feeling so down lately. If it helps, I don't think you've been doing anything wrong with your stories. Nuh-uh, nope. But it's always hard when a wave of not-so-great comments come by.

[lady_songsmith]

Ah, I may have found an ID on this gal - there's a very tiny "by xaipre" on a couple of posts, if you look carefully. Which would be this person: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2108656/ (and she HAS left FB on Mouse and Winterfall, if so)

Edit: and LJ: http://xaipre.livejournal.com/

If this is right, she ought to know fandom well enough to know better

[cofax7]

Hmm, yeah, she's not watching any of us, but she's friended minisinoo, who is an old-school ficwriter (if not actively writing anymore).

I don't recognize her pseud and she's never left me feedback under that name.

I don't get it.

[katharhino.livejournal.com]

In my home fandom (Austen) there is a woman who runs a huge, searchable, extremely useful database of all Austen fic drawn from every site she can find - linked, not hosted, though. And here's the thing: she actually asks the authors' permission to be LINKED. IMO that's not only bending over backward to a ridiculous degree, it's actually harmful, because some authors in Austen fandom have come to expect that they have a say over who LINKS to their stories. Which I think is silly - you can't put something online for public consumption and expect that other people won't link to it, talk about it, and hey, even download it for their offline reading. But this woman has managed to maintain good relations with every side of that fandom, so hey, props to her.

My point is, everyone I see commenting here is being very understanding and tolerant of your situation! Though I'm sure you are right and it's well-intentioned. Unasked-for editing is NOT okay and PDF compilations are... borderline, without permission. I hope it can be sorted out without undue drama!

For the record, I've been less than commenty on your posts recently because I'm busy teaching, not because I think you're doin' it wrong. Just so you know. :-)

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

You have been busy! And yes, I really do NOT want drama. I loathe fandom drama and wank with deep passion. This is all supposed to be fun or done for fun. I guess there's a snippy response on her blog now, which is too bad. I love the fannish community and there would have definitely been room for another!

Edited to add the important NOT. DUH.

[muscatlove.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that people have been raining on your parade re: your fics lately, as I have been loving the snippets you've posted when I've had a chance to read them! (Working at a university, Sept-Oct is crazy busy and I long for Nov-Jan when working 15-hour days is an abomination instead of 'just what you do'.) Some of my favorite authors work so hard developing their own unique spins on the fandom and universe of their stories, and frankly if someone wants to re-read the books over again, just do it or write your own fanfic instead of booing other people's. Might help to post a disclaimer that if you can't say something nicely, don't bother saying it at all?

Wishing you best of luck during stressful times!

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

You have been VERY busy!!! I do hope things settle down!

[ilysia-039.livejournal.com]

Mmmm.... interesting. Some notification might have been... nice? Just a bit, maybe.

And I'm sorry that fandom and RL are beating at you- I know I haven't been around much, but RL's been eating me alive, too. Hang in there, and all that.

I can't even work up the proper energy to be miffed about the whole no-permission thing. But it's nice to know, at least.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

she's ALIVE! and a lot of your stories are in that archive and according to her post to Snacky and Eloise, she intends to continue. So, yep, I hear you about not having the energy. I don't think my work is any danger of showing up there, save for Under Cover. I'm not inclined to complain regardless, though snippiness makes me sad and I'm sorry that some of the authors who I really like are miffed.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

I think this is a very uncomfortable thing. :(

Also I'm sorry things are going shittily. ::hugs:: <3333

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

It's all too bad -- it is uncomfortable and very triggering for a lot of writers. She's only had one of my stories up and while I don't care (or well, I do, but I'm not going to object to her doing so because of the alterations, I am wholly sympathetic to the wishes of the authors who do object and so may send a pointed response asking her to remove my single story as well.

[cofax7]

And now I am forced to wonder--whose art is it, anyway, that she is posting on the site? Some of it is very good indeed, and not all of it is attributed.

[andi-horton.livejournal.com]

That's a valid point, albeit one that made my stomach shrivel at the thought :P There's only one Narnian artist whose work I am pretty sure I'd know on sight, and hers isn't there, so that's some kind of mercy I suppose.

I just do not get why she wouldn't ask. I really don't. I mean, as a not-exactly-perfect comparison, when I created my teaching portfolio you may be damn well sure I obtained permission for every scrap of student work I included, from parents and students alike. I indicate as much in my portfolio, too.

I did that because it wasn't my work. I was well aware that I would be using the entirety of somebody ELSE'S work for my own benefit, and I thought my students should have a say in whether or not I was able to do so. I'll admit I consulted the parents more for legal reasons, but when I asked the students it was out of respect for their authorship--it never occurred to me NOT to ask.

ETA: I do realise I may be overreacting to this, and I am in no position to judge if that's so. When rthstewart mentions she knows how triggering this is, that's at least in part because I've had my work stolen in years past. It has probably made me more than usually sensitive to violations of this type.

[snitchnipped.livejournal.com]

Welp, according to ff.net's TOS (I captured the important bits and put them in songmith's journal here... yeah, your work isn't protected.

All that being said, pulling from ff.net and distributing other people's User Submissions is completely against their TOS and is enough for termination of that account. If she wants to keep posting there, she cannot do what she likes with other User Submissions. Period.

That is to say if she did pull all of the fics from ff.net. If she copied and pasted from other sources...

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, my. It's not plagiarism, when you change someone else's work; it's like a small act of piracy, what she's done. Coming on board uninvited and changing details of emphasis or construction. Bad form. Unfortunate, because I like the collection she's assembled, for the most part.

If the silly ones are trying to offend you again, dear Rth, please close the door on their long noses and let them get out of joint. I hope to catch up with all your recent posts, as life is re-stabilizing and I seem to be figuring out who I am in England.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is bad form. It's so sad because it could have been a great new fandom friend opportunity.

And it's great to hear that life re-stabilizing for you!@!!!

[priscipixie.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry it's been a hard time for you in RL and fandom. I hope it will get better soon, and I hope you know that you are not all those things that people may call you. I know I'm one of those people for whom parts of your bonding fic just did not work, but I honestly love everything else you write. And I love your ideas, and your characters, and your plots and the words you use to write it all, so please, please keep on writing!

So far as the Narnian Caparison drama is concerned, I am appalled at her latest post, so I have left the following comment on her site. I hope it will get published, but let me just share with you anyway:

I'm not a fanfic author, just a humble reader, and I intended to stay out of this little drama in the beginning. After all, I do think some fanfic writers go overboard in protecting their 'verse and their OCs from other fic writers. And I have printed out fic myself to introduce it to people like my mother who cannot read online, so I thought I could understand your basic motivations.

But now I read your essay on how fanfic authors must be prepared to be treated like "real" authors, and I feel like I have to chip in.

Because you see, I am a "real" author, in the sense that I make a living out of writing that is published in the "real" world. It appears in both print and on the internet, and you are free to photocopy it, download it, print it or email it to your friends, so long as you credit it to me. So far, so good.

If you take my words or ideas and include them into something you write, and pass it off as your own work without crediting me, then that is called plagiarism, and my publisher will slap you with a legal suit. But you have not done that here, as you clearly point out.

However, let me assure you that my publisher will also have a problem if you pick up my work without my permission, make a few changes -- edit for spelling, grammar, clarity, format, whatever -- and present it as part of an online compilation along with other people's work. Even if you aren't making any money from it, you will find yourself in legal trouble.

See, these nice people who have been responding to you on this issue so far are fanfic authors, they're part of the fandom and the fannish community, and they believe in stuff like the fannish gift economy, and netiquette, and bad form and being polite. So they don't make legal noises. But you don't believe in any of that. You believe in the "real" world, in the "rights" of readers and authors. I agree with you. So let me issue you a "real" challenge.

Please pick up one book each by CS Lewis, JK Rowling, JRR Tolkien and Stephanie Meyer.

Compile them into an anthology -- a Book -- to introduce classy fantasy writing to your online friends and make it easier for them to access.

Make a few edits. (If you're editing for clarity or readability, I'd say a good bit of Meyer could be cut down. And at least in Book 5, Rowling's long-windedness could have been tightened up. And Lewis really messes up his mythology and world-building -- maybe you could improve it? And of course you could "correct" Tolkien's spellings -- it should really be "elfish" and "dwarfish" to make it easy on readers, don't you think? But no, all these probably go too far for your purposes. So let's be fair. Just leave out any prefaces and dedications, since they are clearly unnecessary for enjoyment of the story. And please strip out all italics.)

Please credit the authors correctly, but don't bother to inform them or their estates.

And then present it here on your website.

I'll do the work of alerting those four authors and their estates -- and their lawyers! -- and then we'll have a fair, real-life test case of how your theories stand up. Until you have the guts to do that, have the decency to treat fanfic authors exactly as you treat "real" authors, and stop editing their work, or presenting it in any way without their permission. Thank you.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

That is an excellent response, Priscipixie. I hope Archivefail! blogger posts it but she's been very selective about what she permits. It's just too bad because she had nice taste in a lot fic and those authors would have had no problem with her linking them from fanfiction.net into an archive. It would have been very nice to have had another Narnia comm. Instead this is, along with Antaprate's remixing and "slaying" of fic she doesn't like, simply ugly.

As for writing, thank you for your kind thoughts. Somewhere in comments here or in the next entry is something short -- a sneak. I AM trying and I have written a lot. I just haven't updated AW. It's a bit depressing because I really want to do Big Bang by finishing something and given the speed of this update, I suspect that may not happen. I put a little more of the scene below.

And with my reply, I believe the comments on this thread have topped 100. YIKES.


Polly hurriedly washed her toast down with the last of her tea. It was going to be a long day. “Thank you, I will. I will just put a few things in my carpet bag. Do you mind if Simon stays here?”

The spaniel, looking at her dolefully, leaned into Kun and shoved his nose into the man’s hand. For answer, Kun ran a hand over Simon’s head.

“A lion in Shropshire with Eustace?” Asim asked, picking up his abandoned coffee cup. “That would be remarkable.”

“Eustace is more interested in reptiles than lions,” Mary said, sorting through the file folder kept in the kitchen labeled Maps of England, Scotland, and Wales. “I cannot wait to show him the lab.”

Lab was actually ballroom, but resembling a laboratory as it was filled with plaster blocks of prehistoric remains and constrictors and lizards in terrariums.

“Asim, could you get one of the packs from the boot of the Standard for Polly?” Mary continued. “It’s a long way and she’ll need provisions.” Kun was putting a paper and a pencil at her elbow as Mary set a War Office map of Western England next to a Popular Edition Ordnance Survey. Asim kept them well supplied in maps and Mary collected them the way other women hoarded Limoges boxes. Polly had learned to trust Mary’s orienteering the first time they had crossed into the Tadrart Acacus.

“No anchovy paste, if you please,” Polly replied firmly.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow! That's what I get for taking a long weekend on vacation. I will also admit to being a published author in RL (textbooks, not fiction) and have to say that I would not be so mild mannered about this. A quick email to my publisher would be highly satisfying, actually.

As ya'll wonderful ladies don't have publishers to complain to, I would write a DMCA complaint to the website host.

Doctor Dolly

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent idea, Dolly. Someone (yes, I'm looking at you, Snacky) has suggested that I submit the complaint, or maybe Cofax. I'll look into it. In the meantime, she did unscreen a bunch of comments, so at least she's not cutting off the commentary even if she's not responding. The cynic in me is wondering if she did this just to drive up hits but the fact remains it's nasty work, it didn't need to be, and some folks are very upset.