rthstewart | Maybe one of you can explain this to me?

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Maybe one of you can explain this to me?

So, yesterday, CBS released its trailer for a new series called Elementary which is, very much like the BBC's Sherlock, updating Sherlock Holmes by placing him, this time, in modern day New York City. In a bit of bold casting, CBS has cast Lucy Liu as Doctor Joan Watson.

And now, apparently some in fandom are upset? Because the CBS show is disrupting the Sherlock/Watson pairing on the BBC show? I think? I found this which is poking fun at the supposed angst?

I sort of speculated on this back with the last Pride & Prejudice remake that I love Lizzie and Darcy so much, I don't really care so much about everything else that happens around them so long as their essential relationship is maintained in the adaptation. I feel very much the same way about Conan Doyle. I love seeing it remade, over and over in new and different ways. I love the idea of an Asian woman as Watson. (I'd like it even better if Holmes was an Asian woman, but hey, give it time).

It's in moments like this that I think I have waaay too much "T" and "J" on my Myers-Briggs profile to be in fandom.

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My husband and I watched the trailer and he stared at it in awe and asked "...is this the first TV show written by a computer?" then asked me if this was a parody show from That Mitchell and Webb Look (see American courtroom drama or medical drama for examples). I think the thing that stands out to me is that reading interviews about how Sherlock is written, the writers emphasize how difficult it is to be as smart as Sherlock and how the director of photography really works to show you how Sherlock perceives a scene rather than just using standard shooting techniques), whereas this show, inasmuch as a short trailer can give accurate impressions, seems to lack that level of forethought - it comes off to me as "Oh no, House is over and we need some show with a Brit to replace it for 9 seasons" and Lucy Liu leaves me feeling kind of meh on her character. I really hope it surpasses my expectations, but somehow I don't have high hopes that they're going to be creative with the genderswap and storytelling..

Edited 2012-05-18 00:18 (UTC)

I liked the idea of it way more than I liked the actual trailer. Something that both Sherlock and the original Robert Downey Jr. first Sherlock Holmes movie have done is bring a psychological approach to Holmes as someone who himself has a pathology.

I agree the look was completely American Courtroom Drama -- Another CSI! Another Law and Order!! I don't watch much TV but I would watch a woman as Holmes or Watson -- what was immediately off putting to me was the idea of the woman Watson as Holmes' caretaker/caregiver?

Regardless, I guess there's an element of the fandom that is coming out with some nasty about how inserting a woman into their favorite bromance is homophobic? I don't really understand it, as Holmes/Watson are canonically a bromance (whether romantically involved or not). The Holmes/Watson slash pairing certainly predates the BBC show by decades.

Yeah, the comments on the Sherlock Facebook page were lots of gut reaction uselessness, although they don't tend as much towards slashers. I think the thing that irritates me the most is that there is the possibility of doing something really original with the show's idea, but they're afraid of straying too far from something recognizable, and the Watson character doesn't have much chance to show off personality in this trailer, nor is there any hint of chemistry between the leads.

I get really annoyed when fans are so obsessed with the slash angle (or to paraphrase someone below, when they cry "THERE'S VAGINA INTERFERING WITH MY OTP!") that they come off as either woman-hating or idiotic. I started out my fandom life in Sailor Moon, an almost totally female-based canon with canonical lesbians/general girl-power vibes (mixed with "hot chicks in short skirts", but what can you do?), then moved to Gundam Wing, where a huge chunk of fandom seemed to spend more time than necessary thinking of ways to murder off the canonical female love interest that interfered with the favorite slash pairing. While she was admittedly annoying at times, she was actually pretty kick-ass for the role she was given.

The anti-female waves creep me out every time they reappear (especially since women seem to be the ones forming the mobs), and emphasize again the real issues that media/Hollywood still has with creating and showcasing well-rounded female characters. Despite all the T&A in "Game of Thrones", at least you can say the women have interesting personalities.

The anti-female waves creep me out every time they reappear (especially since women seem to be the ones forming the mobs), and emphasize again the real issues that media/Hollywood still has with creating and showcasing well-rounded female characters. Despite all the T&A in "Game of Thrones", at least you can say the women have interesting personalities

Yes to all of this. I've given up on Game of Thrones because I really just can't handle the violence and rape. It's way too brutal for me, but it does feature a very, very well drawn out set of female characters. The women heaping hate on women (Supernatural, I'm looking at you, to say nothing of the Ginny haters and the River Song haters, etc. etc.) just depresses me so much. In the pursuit of the male ships, women are written off and out.

I love Sherlock, because of the the way they riff on the original: Watson was injured in Afghanistan wars both times, he blogs instead of writing for the Strand, the slight changes in the story titles. Plus the relationship between Sherlock and Watson and the lightning fast repartee is just great.

I have also enjoyed other Holmes versions: The Seven Per Cent Solution years ago and the Robert Downey Jr. one. ( I haven't seen the sequel yet.) I liked its steam-punk feel and the gritty, grimy look of the London streets. And of course Jeremy Brett's Holmes if you want something that sticks close to the original.

People may be thinking that "Elementary" is just stretching the whole Holmes stories too far from their core. It's modern day and set in New York ( I always feel that Holmes needs the foggy, sooty, narrow London streets to feel the suspense) and instead of Scotland Yard there is NYPD and Watson is a woman shrink instead of a male ex-army doctor. But I will reserve judgement until I see the actual program.

ClaireI

The Elementary trailer didn't engage me as I hoped it would and I love the Holems mythos in all it's many manifestations. I remember the old Basil Rathbone Holmes complete with deerstalker cap ended up hunting Nazis in one film. I loved the steampunk feel of the Downey Jr. one too! It was such fun (and a great Watson in Jude Watson).

I think part of it IS there's "Sherlock" right now, which is probably superior to...pretty much any Holmes adaptations except the Brett version (where it's not so much BETTER are pure period.) So it's hard to imagine this will be any better. Partially it's the odd reverse American snobbery that "British is better" (which is actually kind of hard to argue with where most TV's concerned.)

And part of it is...ANOTHER adaptation? There are how many dozens of original stories pitched, and they run with an overt knockoff? Heck, "House" was Holmes/Watson. We've already got a modern Sherlock Holmes. A really, REALLY good one. They can't come up with something more original?

Of course, right now as far as old-school network goes, I watch NCIS, Dancing With the Stars, and sometimes Castle when it doesn't get on my nerves. (And NCIS is pushing it there, too.) At this point I'd be more excited to hear they were making National Treasure 3 than any sort of network show.

As someone else said, I guess the feeling is that the network is trying to replace House. Like you, I hardly watch any TV anyway. I did catch some Buffy last night when I was on the treadmill. Oh gosh, it's so 90s and my son was asking what it was about and I couldn't even begin to describe the backstory that was bringing us to Season 3.

So much original, creative programming begins in the UK, I guess it's just easier to try to copy what they do then come up with something original.

Oh, the old-school die-hard Holmes/Watson slashers are (some of them) horrified that there might be vaginas in their fandom. Pay them no mind.

As far as I can tell? Basically. There are only two reasons I can think of for changing a character's gender - either they think it's impossible to be politically correct without having at least one woman in a major role (which doesn't bother a lot of people as much as they seem to think), or they are blatantly trying to create a romance, which is the impression I get from the trailer. Worse, it's that they don't seem to believe such a romance - whether platonic or not - is possible unless one character is a man and one is a woman.

Then there's also the underlying offensiveness in that they decided to make a copycat show at all, as if it has to be set in New York to be good enough for American audiences. They did the same thing a few years ago when they created Camelot as a copy of BBC's Merlin. That's even worse, in my mind.

(Also, funny you should mention that last - I'm also a TJ ;)

My J is really, REALLY strongly expressed and my T moderately so. I'm very borderline on the E/I and S/N. But given what I am in real life, I tend to be in a rooms filled with field marshalls. T and J is highly expressed and often E as well. My husband is a very, very strong INTJ.

And Camelot -- oh gosh that was terrible. Ugh. And I love Arthur retellings and it was just bad.

Yes, arg. May Camelot never be spoken of again. Arg.

Join the club. My T is an extroverted second function, so it tends to bull its way through just about everything when I really shouldn't let it, so I know what you mean. It's not easy being T! ;) Or J, but I couldn't make that rhyme.

I'm waiting and seeing on this - personally I think I may end up watching the first episode out of curiosity, but for now there's not really enough for me to definetly watch it :)

However I am intrigued by how - softer - their Sherlock is. It might just be those scenes in the trailer, but he's coming across a lot less arrogant, and more like an intelligent puppy that knows he's right but often forgets where the line is :) That seems like an interesting way to go :)

(Course I may be talking out my backside when its eventually aired, but we'll see :) )

And I always think that it's the Americans who clamoring to get BBC TV.... We assume it is all better by definition.

From what I heard on NPR, this show was supposed to be the American version of Sherlock (WHY?!), but the studio got tired of negotiating with the UK producers and decided to do their own.

In order to avoid direct clashes with Sherlock, they changed things up.

Whatever. Doubt I'll watch. Don't get why fans get so excited about things.

The excitement that I've seen is mostly in the odd complaint that making the American Watson female will destroy/is homophobic/is bad given the Holmes/Watson slash ship in Sherlock. Really. As Cofax said, someone is putting vaginas in my fandom! Which I don't get but then I don't get Supernatural either.

EEEEEEEE JONNY LEE MILLER!!!!!! Okay, NOW I want to watch.

Ahem, coherent thoughts about this issue. Yes. Gender swapping is always kind of fun, and this is a modern resetting, so... *shrug*... why is this an issue? Actually, I wouldn't care if Watson were a woman in a historical adaptation either. I guess like you, I don't care what you do as long as you're true to a reasonable interpretation of the canon characters and their relationship. I actually prefer versions in which Holmes is asexual and his relationship with Watson is incredibly intimate but not romantic. So I can easily imagine this going down a very cliched and boring road, but that's my only problem with it. Also, I agree with other commenters on the lamentable lack of originality on TV. But I would think fans should be excited about this apparent resurgence of interest in Holmes - like the popularity of Austen, it doesn't mean you have to like ALL the adaptations, it just means that there is plenty of new stuff to discuss and you're probably bound to like at least SOME of them.

Speaking of Austen updated, have you seen the Lizzie Bennett Video Diaries? Some of it works really well, other aspects of it not so much. Still, it's so easy. Sit at the computer, go to You Tube and press play all. I'm with you regarding Holmes as asexual. There are some characters who I just fundamentally see sexuality playing no role in their lives at all and Holmes is one of them (Digory Kirke and Doctor Who are others). There was a BBC or American production on PBS that had Holmes slightly updated with Watson marrying a Freudian psychologist and she helps Holmes get into the head of a sex crimes-oriented perpetrator. I view it all as fan derived work -- some of it is licensed, some of it isn't, but as you say, some you'll like and some you won't.

If they can do a kick-ass, mind-blowing, ground breaking, fresh take adaptation, then more power to them... with two men, a man and a woman, two women... whatever, as long as it's great casting, acting, and production values.

But, once I read "Lucy Liu", I admit... my imagination cringed at the thought, and my knee-jerk reaction is not a positive one.

Not a fan, eh? I've not seen Rizzoli and Isles but I guess it goes in this direction a bit?

LJ really doesn't love me commenting on this post - my computer's eaten it twice so far. Anyway...

I'll admit to being an absolute BBC Sherlock fangirl. I absolutely adore the clever writing and the snark and humour and mad interactions. For me, it's the chemistry and interaction between the leads and main secondary characters that just makes the show. And based on what I've seen from the Elementary trailer, that's not there in the same way. Nothing to do with pairings, just not sure it works the way Beeb's casting does.

Still, I'm reserving judgement until I see a full CBS episode (which will probably be very much later Down Under than for those of you in more northerly climes!)

Edited 2012-05-19 05:49 (UTC)

And Elementary might be one worth missing!

I really do want this adaptation to be brilliant. However, part of me has some serious reservations about it?

For starters, given the current "craze" for anything Holmes-related (off the top of my head I can name the RDJ movies, the BBC series, and I've also seen multiple fanfiction-novels in various bookstores), this seems to be an attempt to cash in on a bandwagon, and historically those tend to be awful.

If you look at the trailer but swap out the names Holmes and Watson for . . . well, just about anything else . . . you really wouldn't think immediately, "oh, this is a modern-day adaptation of Sherlock Holmes!" I know personally, looking at adaptations of the story that I've liked, they've all kept the British aspect of the character intact, and so I'm not sure how the story will translate to New York yet still retain that appeal to the mysteries. Part of what makes canon Holmes so wonderful is the atmosphere. And, to be frank, if they had done this exact same show WITHOUT the name "Sherlock Holmes" attached to the script, it would probably be a very generic trailer that nobody would be talking about. That worries me.

Disclaimer: I AM a bit of a fangirl for the BBC's Sherlock. But then, the BBC version was crafted with some serious care. The script was sharp, the leads were perfectly cast, and the cinematography was absolutely breathtaking. Not many series could get away with airing three episodes at a shot and still having people waiting with bated breath for more! I'm just not getting the same vibe from Elementary. The trailer wasn't heartening, either, since it seemed to treat the show as a cross between House and CSI, so I'm not holding my breath for the same standard of writing with individual cases.

Then, there's the matter of a female Watson. Even better - an Asian female Watson. Oh, I want to love this. I really do. I want to take this reinterpretation of this character and smother it in all my fangirlish squees. I want to be able to fall madly in love with fem!Watson, especially as she's being played by Lucy Liu.

I'm scared, though. Call me out on jumping the gun if you want, but I'm worried that this is simply going to be taken as an excuse for the writers to place Holmes and Watson in a romantic relationship; it's one of those ~interpretations~ that has been around since Sir Conan Doyle published the first story (I have seen essays written in the early 1900s that suggest as much), and part of me is worried that fem!Watson is an indication that the writers will go down that road. This isn't horrible in and of itself, if it's done smartly, but the implications of it kind of disturb me: having a female Watson suddenly makes this palatable to what the networks feel the American public wants.

I do ship Sherlock and John in several adaptations of the stories, but I don't feel this reaction is me getting bent out of shape about something messing with a ship? More like, I feel like by making Watson a woman, the excuse is now there for the Elementary writers to focus more on the romantic potential of the pairing between the two characters than on the original dynamic that makes the other versions of the story so great. We're already up to our necks in criminal dramas with a male and a female lead who have the hots for each other but spend seasons either wallowing in UST or allowing their relationship to interfere with their work in conveniently plot-specific ways. I don't think we need another one.

Of course, if it turns out that I'm horribly misreading the situation, I will gladly swallow my words and love this show with my whole heart! All things considered, I'm definitely open to watching the CBS version, but as it stands, the whole thing reeks of "bit not good" and I am definitely tentative about the whole affair.

Wow, that was quite the wall of text. Apparently I have more feelings about this than I originally thought I did!

My apologies, Ruth!

(Also, fellow TJ's unite! Mine is paired with IN)

Edited 2012-05-21 12:01 (UTC)

Squid, nice of you stop by and oh no we NEVER have tl;dr over here. EVER. Take a look at previous posts and you'll see that I ENCOURAGE walls of text. To me, what bothered me a lot about the tumblr angst I saw is what

muscatlove pointed out -- more evidence of women in fandom heaping hate on women characters who get in the way of their slash ships between two hot white actors. You see it in Merlin, SPN, and so many others and it really bothers me -- and it's a subset of women hating female characters all over fandom. I saw one person writing in response to Gingerhaze on Tumblr that she just wasn't "comfortable" seeing a woman as Watson to which Noelle responded, you know, you might want to examine that.

As you noted, the Holmes & Watson more than friends pairing has been around for a very, very long time and Sherlock fandom didn't invent it. It's not even edgy. It's been there forever and the shock would have been if it wasn't there. For me, like

katharhino this is one relationship where I generally prefer an asexual Holmes in part because Watson (who in the original stories can be read very much as a ladies' man) is a window for Holmes into women and sexual relationships. But then even more than Holmes, I've always been a Watson fan girl. (My closest interpretation was the Guy Ritchie Watson played by Jude Law).

You nailed the problem with the trailer. There is nothing that suggests that it's remotely connected to the ultimate character of Holmes and his relationship with Watson other than the names. Further, it would be GREAT if they actually tried a m/f buddy crime drama without the UST because as you say, enough already.

We'll see. The casting choice was a brilliant example of fan fiction in progress -- taking an old, white male property and mixing up the race and gender -- this is representative of fan derivative work at its best. If one of them was queer would be even better or if Holmes was the one who'd been gender bent. But I always applaud the effort to remake an established narrative in culturally relevant terms. Alas, Elementary may not be the right vehicle for it and if producers come away with the lesson, "Oh we went too far. People don't like a feminine Watson,' well that would be a shame.

That's definitely valid, and I HAVE noticed the same vibe from other fandoms, too. It really does irritate me, when the only objection to a character is simply that they get in the way of a ship. I guess what I was trying to say is that my whole issue with the show runs a bit deeper than that, though! As I said, I really WOULD love to adore Elementary - I just don't see it happening with the way the series seems to have been handled.

The fanworks aspect of Elementary does fill me with a little bit of squee. I merely wish the show were approached as an adaptation instead of an attempt to find a foothold in an over-saturated genre by attaching such a well-known name to the main character. Personally, I love the idea of a female Watson. I would just love for that character to be written as more than a vehicle, and confess that I AM worried that fem!Watson is simply an excuse to create UST. I do love the casting choices, though, and am keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be pleasantly surprised when the series airs!

(Also, on an unrelated tangent, my inner psychology major is just a bit peeved that she's been written as a psychiatrist and "sober buddy" instead of as a flat-out doctor, since lately psychology is coming to be seen as more of a nurturing, "female" field of study - 70% of my anticipated graduating class in this major is female! Come ON, writers, what's up with that?!)

Doctor of psychology? Huh. Yep that's definitely not a step in the right direction for Watson. Sigh.

Did you and Winged have fun at iHop? I was expecting photographic evidence!

it will be interesting to see if Elementary does anything. I'd love to find a show I could like. I had been pretty optimistic about Once Upon A Time and just gave up on it. Conversely, it sounds like Grimm really improved. I wish I could watch Game of Thrones but the violence is too hard for me. Narnia fandom has pushed me much further left but my ability to handle violence has really diminished. So I want a gender-bent Watson to succeed.

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Maybe one of you can explain this to me?

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Elementary

Re: Elementary

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