rthstewart (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rthstewart) wrote2012-01-13 09:29 am
rthstewart) wrote2012-01-13 09:29 am
Entry tags:
Plaster of paris trout and Ur Doing It Wrong (redux)
I had to google fu More Joy Day. Admittedly, I’m not feeling terribly joyous the last two days due to some badness and woe – one of those situations with a close family friend about your own age going into the hospital for a backache and coming out a day later with a dire prognosis. WTF? So, I’ll just get that out there and move on.
After 2 plus years of hiding rthstewart from the Old Fandom Friends, I’ve now come clean, more or less, and so some of them are now over here. So, Old Fandom Friends meet New Fandom Friends. Fanfiction has been my social network for a very, very long time.
We’ve all had some fun watching this Ur Doing It Wrong unfold (also here and here) and if you want to read more, PM![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lady_songsmith about it who has done a wonderful job dissecting the Ur Doing It Wrong advocates. (I very much want to buy Sasper and NotAFan a drink. Step up to the bar, ladies, whoever you are). We went through some of this earlier over here with the “fic slayer” Anaprate which turned into a lovely discussion here about textual analysis, communities, and canonicity.
It does make me a little sad and wistful as I have noticed that some folks who have been long time readers, have apparently finally abandoned the stories and jumped on board with the above. I suspect that, to their mind, I finally went where they just could not follow, first with the NFE, and then when I tried to recognize what the data show about the social impact of the war on women with Helen and her guilty relationship with the widow Beatrice next door. I get where the objections come from and I regret that we seem to have parted company as I do really value the associations that have developed over the course of the last few years.
Something interesting from the last chapter is the reader split on whether the “children” would perceive the relationship. They are all adult and sophisticated. Susan sees something and dismisses it -- essentially concluding, "I know what that looks like but of course it's just my imagination. My mother would never do anything like that." I’d written several versions of the scene in the kitchen with Susan and her mother and in some Susan did recognize it. Readers definitely went both ways on the issue.
Last, there’s been (again) a lot stuff about poor Mary Sue. Geek trendsetter Felicia Day recently Tweeted that more than “meh” she was coming to hate the term Mary Sue, which led to the often posted link to the discussion of why Mary Sue was sexist. My favorite exploration of Sue comes from Pat Pflieger here. It was that article that formed the basis for my own exploration of Sue in the character of Dalia. The article is dated in its fandom references but in the end, Ms. Pfliger comes down solidly in the camp that Mary Sue is an expression of feminine empowerment, and maybe the very first one for a young girl.
Granted I don’t read all those stories on the ff.net page. But that’s not the point. I think of it this way. When I was 10, I used to make sure I always wore sensible shoes to school because, should a portal open and take me to Narnia, I’d be ready. I knew it wasn't real, but if it was real, one does not simply walk into Narnia in sandals (I grew up in So Cal). And you can bet there was a purpose/prophecy in me going there; I didn't think romance at the time but adventure and awesome ninja fighting skills definitely. By 13, I was certain I had a tragic past and I was totally the 10th member of the Fellowship. My spousal unit mentions that there’s not a boy (or man) in the world who, alone, shooting hoops or kicking a ball, doesn’t pretend he’s the hero scoring the game-winning point. Every girl out twirling on the ice pretends she’s an Olympic medalist. These are self inserts, the products of our glorious imaginations, and damn it, most of us will never make a living as a basketball player or Olympic skater. The fact that we aren’t great at these endeavors, and might even be really terrible at them, doesn’t matter because it’s the glory of creative pretend play. So there. (I've been thinking about this a lot as someone posted the first 1700 words of a girl falls into Narnia using some of rthstewart-verse, so I'm anxiously waiting to see what (if anything) happens next. Oh vanity but I am curious really to see a modern FOC/Peter set in rth-influenced Golden Age crack Narnia).
Oh and I’m looking for a 1940s Brit speak for insert into the following [assume drunk paratrooper grunts at a pub]
“That trout was plaster-of-paris,” Peter added, laughing at Brotheridge's quote.
The others all stared at him.
“The book? Three Men in a Boat? To say nothing of the dog?”
More blank, glassy looks.
“I’ll just shut it and drink my pint,” Peter said.
Bailey laughed and slapped him across the shoulder blades so hard he nearly upended his beer. “It’s cuz it’s about boats. That's how you know it."
“Pevensie don’t know ___ from ___, but he does know boats!” Parr hollered.
After 2 plus years of hiding rthstewart from the Old Fandom Friends, I’ve now come clean, more or less, and so some of them are now over here. So, Old Fandom Friends meet New Fandom Friends. Fanfiction has been my social network for a very, very long time.
We’ve all had some fun watching this Ur Doing It Wrong unfold (also here and here) and if you want to read more, PM
lady_songsmith about it who has done a wonderful job dissecting the Ur Doing It Wrong advocates. (I very much want to buy Sasper and NotAFan a drink. Step up to the bar, ladies, whoever you are). We went through some of this earlier over here with the “fic slayer” Anaprate which turned into a lovely discussion here about textual analysis, communities, and canonicity.It does make me a little sad and wistful as I have noticed that some folks who have been long time readers, have apparently finally abandoned the stories and jumped on board with the above. I suspect that, to their mind, I finally went where they just could not follow, first with the NFE, and then when I tried to recognize what the data show about the social impact of the war on women with Helen and her guilty relationship with the widow Beatrice next door. I get where the objections come from and I regret that we seem to have parted company as I do really value the associations that have developed over the course of the last few years.
Something interesting from the last chapter is the reader split on whether the “children” would perceive the relationship. They are all adult and sophisticated. Susan sees something and dismisses it -- essentially concluding, "I know what that looks like but of course it's just my imagination. My mother would never do anything like that." I’d written several versions of the scene in the kitchen with Susan and her mother and in some Susan did recognize it. Readers definitely went both ways on the issue.
Last, there’s been (again) a lot stuff about poor Mary Sue. Geek trendsetter Felicia Day recently Tweeted that more than “meh” she was coming to hate the term Mary Sue, which led to the often posted link to the discussion of why Mary Sue was sexist. My favorite exploration of Sue comes from Pat Pflieger here. It was that article that formed the basis for my own exploration of Sue in the character of Dalia. The article is dated in its fandom references but in the end, Ms. Pfliger comes down solidly in the camp that Mary Sue is an expression of feminine empowerment, and maybe the very first one for a young girl.
Granted I don’t read all those stories on the ff.net page. But that’s not the point. I think of it this way. When I was 10, I used to make sure I always wore sensible shoes to school because, should a portal open and take me to Narnia, I’d be ready. I knew it wasn't real, but if it was real, one does not simply walk into Narnia in sandals (I grew up in So Cal). And you can bet there was a purpose/prophecy in me going there; I didn't think romance at the time but adventure and awesome ninja fighting skills definitely. By 13, I was certain I had a tragic past and I was totally the 10th member of the Fellowship. My spousal unit mentions that there’s not a boy (or man) in the world who, alone, shooting hoops or kicking a ball, doesn’t pretend he’s the hero scoring the game-winning point. Every girl out twirling on the ice pretends she’s an Olympic medalist. These are self inserts, the products of our glorious imaginations, and damn it, most of us will never make a living as a basketball player or Olympic skater. The fact that we aren’t great at these endeavors, and might even be really terrible at them, doesn’t matter because it’s the glory of creative pretend play. So there. (I've been thinking about this a lot as someone posted the first 1700 words of a girl falls into Narnia using some of rthstewart-verse, so I'm anxiously waiting to see what (if anything) happens next. Oh vanity but I am curious really to see a modern FOC/Peter set in rth-influenced Golden Age crack Narnia).
Oh and I’m looking for a 1940s Brit speak for insert into the following [assume drunk paratrooper grunts at a pub]
“That trout was plaster-of-paris,” Peter added, laughing at Brotheridge's quote.
The others all stared at him.
“The book? Three Men in a Boat? To say nothing of the dog?”
More blank, glassy looks.
“I’ll just shut it and drink my pint,” Peter said.
Bailey laughed and slapped him across the shoulder blades so hard he nearly upended his beer. “It’s cuz it’s about boats. That's how you know it."
“Pevensie don’t know ___ from ___, but he does know boats!” Parr hollered.
no subject
As for the Ur Doing It Wrong - I have to confess that the whole thing strikes me as so juvenile I hate even giving it the time of day. I just feel like, really? Really? We're adults and doing this, really? When I was a kid and started getting snotty about the right way to do things, I had plenty of uncles, aunts, cousins, and an older sister to laugh at me and show me how silly it was; I hated it then (naturally), but now I wish everyone had a big family like that to help them keep perspective. The wellbeing of the world is not going to be affected by some teenagers writing stories with bad grammar and Mary Sues. It might, however, be affected by individuals who take such thin pretext as license and cause to be cruel and condescending.
(I reread your River & Mara story last night, by the way, and very nearly spit my drink all over the computer at Mara's comment about finding Jedi at the blob races. Oh Luke, Luke, you ninny! Mara and River's friendship is definitely going into my story.)
no subject
Absolutely! And I cannot wait to see the crack-over of yours. I've not so much put myself in as a person, but without question, some characters actively speak with my (sometimes didactic) voice. Also, I'm certainly guilty of the Mary Mom -- I don't put myself in, but write canon characters as I would want my children to behave.
I admit my own thoughts on Sues have changed over the last few years and maybe it's because the children I know have gotten older and I see more of how creative play matures. I get irritated at those who claim to know-it-all. Apart from the nastiness, and really there is enough of that in the world, I find the communities that develop around fanfiction to be glorious and precious and prefer to find ways to build them, rather than making them divisive and mean.
Yeah, the blob race reference is one of those things from my ancient fanfic past (oh KJA you hack). Could not resist. And I just saw the shiny new 3D posters for The Phantom Menace. I'm somehow saw that very mediocre film 13 times in the theater. Strutting twirling Young Obi Wan Kenobi in 3D -- now there's a fantasy I'll indulge in shamelessly.
no subject
I have my own marvelous Star Wars EU in my head, where Luke trains Mara first, and the Force brings new students to them, and there is NO ACADEMY. Or blob races. (Oh, and Padme's death was staged to protect her, and she was whisked to Alderaan with Leia and surrounded by ysalamiri (because clearly, Zahn (and Stackpole and Allston) are canon no matter what sort of AU EU I am creating) so that no one can sense her in the Force, and she dies when Leia is about four, thus making ROTJ make sense again.) I am not invested enough in SW anymore to write this, but it's all there rattling around in my brain.
Wes Janson is threatening to crash my story with Ewok pranks. CAN YOU IMAGINE MAL'S REACTION?
no subject
"What in Gorram is that?"
"Ewok," Wes replied, turning the spit more slowly. "Fine eating. Tastes just like chicken."
and I would totally go back to read SW EU for THAT fic. Oh yes. Oh Mara. My first serious fandom girl crush.
no subject
no subject
no subject
I'm not the prude I was when we first met over a decade and a few kids ago, but minors in my writing Don't. Have. Sex. Period. If they're under 18, they're not Doing It in my story. There's my Mary Mom line, I guess.
no subject
no subject
I also think people have a hard time shifting from a canon whose audience was primarily young people or children to fic based off it that's primarily for adults. I know I had trouble with that at first when I started getting interested in fics about kids' cartoons mostly because my kids were at the age they were watching those cartoons and that's all I was ever exposed to because who had time for TV when the kids weren't around???
So when I first read stories with Sex! and Swearing! it just seemed wrong. It took a while for me to warm up to the concept and even embrace it.
And really, it's not like it's anything new. Big-screen adaption of comic books (Superman, Spider-Man, Transformers) all are intended for more adult audiences than the original comics or cartoons, and so there's stuff like sex and swearing and just more grittiness overall. I don't remember people picketing Superman II because Lois and Clark were seen in bed together.
But for some reason, fic based on cartoons is seen differently, and God forbid you have adult themes in a fic for adult audiences with adult characters if the canon was about kids intended for kids.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Yeah, I get very uncomfortable when I see harsh reviews on stories, because most people don't really know who the author is. (Now, I say this only having read the reviews, not the story itself, which may be snotty in and of itself.)
Remember, ffdn is for people as young as 13. *13.* Seriously, do 13-year-olds venturing into writing for the first time need to be told they're hacks? Gentle corrections, perhaps sandwiched in between praises of what the writer does right would be much better. (Just like a lie is more convincing between two truths, a criticism is more palatable between two praises.)
I have two 14-year-old daughters who write. One is a brilliant writer who writes well beyond her years. The other is, well, a 14-year-old girl who likes to write stories about her favorite couple on her favorite TV show. When she first told me she was writing fic, I got all excited and told her she should get an ffdn account and post her stories. She said, no, she's just writing for herself. She doesn't even want me to read them (and yeah, I know most kids don't want their moms to read their stuff, but I write fics about cartoons and she knows it, so it's not like she's going to get judgment from me about the whole fanfic thing.
But anyway, I let it drop when she said she didn't want to share, and the more I think about it, the more I kinda hope she doesn't post on ffdn, because she is not a skilled writer, her spelling and grammar is atrocious, and I can just see her getting slammed with ugly reviews. And who needs that, really? She's not doing this to become a great writer. She doesn't want to hone her skills, like her sister does. And you know what? That's OK. She can write her stories for her own fun and she doesn't ever have to be really good at it if that's not her bag.
But it's so easy to imagine in fandom that writers are all adults and put adult expectations on their work. I guess if you put something out there, you have to expect criticism, but I still just think it's wrong to be nasty about it.
no subject
no subject
You are quite right -- you put something out, you need to be prepared to take the hits. However, given the availability of the back key, I don't know why someone would deliberately seek out poorly written fic solely to leave harsh reviews, trash and mock the young writers who put it out there, and write scathing how to's when good fic languishes for lack of FB. Those who do this have said that their furious efforts to mock the bad fic they seek out are to restore canon to its pur(er) state, show respect for authorial intent, and for their own catharsis. Fine, though I don't find those reasons especially compelling personally. I don't question anyone's "right" to do these things but when I see bullying behavior, at some point, I'm not just going to give it a pass.
no subject