Plaster of paris trout and Ur Doing It Wrong (redux)

[rthstewart]

I had to google fu More Joy Day. Admittedly, I’m not feeling terribly joyous the last two days due to some badness and woe – one of those situations with a close family friend about your own age going into the hospital for a backache and coming out a day later with a dire prognosis. WTF? So, I’ll just get that out there and move on.

After 2 plus years of hiding rthstewart from the Old Fandom Friends, I’ve now come clean, more or less, and so some of them are now over here. So, Old Fandom Friends meet New Fandom Friends. Fanfiction has been my social network for a very, very long time.

We’ve all had some fun watching this Ur Doing It Wrong unfold (also here and here) and if you want to read more, PM lady_songsmith about it who has done a wonderful job dissecting the Ur Doing It Wrong advocates.  (I very much want to buy Sasper and NotAFan a drink.  Step up to the bar, ladies, whoever you are).  We went through some of this earlier over here with the “fic slayer” Anaprate which turned into a lovely discussion here about textual analysis, communities, and canonicity.

It does make me a little sad and wistful as I have noticed that some folks who have been long time readers, have apparently finally abandoned the stories and jumped on board with the above. I suspect that, to their mind, I finally went where they just could not follow, first with the NFE, and then when I tried to recognize what the data show about the social impact of the war on women with Helen and her guilty relationship with the widow Beatrice next door. I get where the objections come from and I regret that we seem to have parted company as I do really value the associations that have developed over the course of the last few years.

Something interesting from the last chapter is the reader split on whether the “children” would perceive the relationship.  They are all adult and sophisticated.  Susan sees something and dismisses it -- essentially concluding, "I know what that looks like but of course it's just my imagination.  My mother would never do anything like that."   I’d written several versions of the scene in the kitchen with Susan and her mother and in some Susan did recognize it.  Readers definitely went both ways on the issue.

Last, there’s been (again) a lot stuff about poor Mary Sue. Geek trendsetter Felicia Day recently Tweeted that more than “meh” she was coming to hate the term Mary Sue, which led to the often posted link to the discussion of why Mary Sue was sexist. My favorite exploration of Sue comes from Pat Pflieger here. It was that article that formed the basis for my own exploration of Sue in the character of Dalia. The article is dated in its fandom references but in the end, Ms. Pfliger comes down solidly in the camp that Mary Sue is an expression of feminine empowerment, and maybe the very first one for a young girl.

Granted I don’t read all those stories on the ff.net page. But that’s not the point. I think of it this way. When I was 10, I used to make sure I always wore sensible shoes to school because, should a portal open and take me to Narnia, I’d be ready. I knew it wasn't real, but if it was real, one does not simply walk into Narnia in sandals (I grew up in So Cal). And you can bet there was a purpose/prophecy in me going there; I didn't think romance at the time but adventure and awesome ninja fighting skills definitely.  By 13, I was certain I had a tragic past and I was totally the 10th member of the Fellowship.   My spousal unit mentions that there’s not a boy (or man) in the world who, alone, shooting hoops or kicking a ball, doesn’t pretend he’s the hero scoring the game-winning point. Every girl out twirling on the ice pretends she’s an Olympic medalist. These are self inserts, the products of our glorious imaginations, and damn it, most of us will never make a living as a basketball player or Olympic skater. The fact that we aren’t great at these endeavors, and might even be really terrible at them, doesn’t matter because it’s the glory of creative pretend play.  So there.  (I've been thinking about this a lot as someone posted the first 1700 words of a girl falls into Narnia using some of rthstewart-verse, so I'm anxiously waiting to see what (if anything) happens next.  Oh vanity but I am curious really to see a modern FOC/Peter set in rth-influenced Golden Age crack Narnia).

Oh and I’m looking for a 1940s Brit speak for insert into the following [assume drunk paratrooper grunts at a pub]

“That trout was plaster-of-paris,” Peter added, laughing at Brotheridge's quote.

The others all stared at him.

“The book? Three Men in a Boat? To say nothing of the dog?”

More blank, glassy looks.

“I’ll just shut it and drink my pint,” Peter said.

Bailey laughed and slapped him across the shoulder blades so hard he nearly upended his beer.  “It’s cuz it’s about boats.  That's how you know it."

“Pevensie don’t know ___ from ___, but he does know boats!” Parr hollered.

Comments

[elouise82.livejournal.com]

With my own (slightly guilty) self insert into my latest "fun" story, I've been thinking more about this - for me, it isn't so much about creating a Mary Sue (although I have LONG felt that "Mary Sues" are vitally important in our imaginations, just maybe not such a good idea to write out and put for the world to see on a public forum like ff.net) as it is giving me a chance to look at myself as I would any other character, flaws and strengths and all, and figure out what is it about me that would not change no matter what world I was in.

As for the Ur Doing It Wrong - I have to confess that the whole thing strikes me as so juvenile I hate even giving it the time of day. I just feel like, really? Really? We're adults and doing this, really? When I was a kid and started getting snotty about the right way to do things, I had plenty of uncles, aunts, cousins, and an older sister to laugh at me and show me how silly it was; I hated it then (naturally), but now I wish everyone had a big family like that to help them keep perspective. The wellbeing of the world is not going to be affected by some teenagers writing stories with bad grammar and Mary Sues. It might, however, be affected by individuals who take such thin pretext as license and cause to be cruel and condescending.

(I reread your River & Mara story last night, by the way, and very nearly spit my drink all over the computer at Mara's comment about finding Jedi at the blob races. Oh Luke, Luke, you ninny! Mara and River's friendship is definitely going into my story.)

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

as it is giving me a chance to look at myself as I would any other character, flaws and strengths and all, and figure out what is it about me that would not change no matter what world I was in.
Absolutely! And I cannot wait to see the crack-over of yours. I've not so much put myself in as a person, but without question, some characters actively speak with my (sometimes didactic) voice. Also, I'm certainly guilty of the Mary Mom -- I don't put myself in, but write canon characters as I would want my children to behave.

I admit my own thoughts on Sues have changed over the last few years and maybe it's because the children I know have gotten older and I see more of how creative play matures. I get irritated at those who claim to know-it-all. Apart from the nastiness, and really there is enough of that in the world, I find the communities that develop around fanfiction to be glorious and precious and prefer to find ways to build them, rather than making them divisive and mean.

Yeah, the blob race reference is one of those things from my ancient fanfic past (oh KJA you hack). Could not resist. And I just saw the shiny new 3D posters for The Phantom Menace. I'm somehow saw that very mediocre film 13 times in the theater. Strutting twirling Young Obi Wan Kenobi in 3D -- now there's a fantasy I'll indulge in shamelessly.

[lady_songsmith]

At this point, it's as much a matter of honest curiosity as anything else. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I'm feeling like I really want all the "why's" that abound in this whole thing answered, because I don't understand, and I hate not understanding. Anything. Ever. About 90% of my life is explained by poking my nose into things or taking them apart to see how they work. I'm getting the same itchy-finger sensation here.

[raykel.livejournal.com]

Really? We're adults and doing this, really?

Yeah, I get very uncomfortable when I see harsh reviews on stories, because most people don't really know who the author is. (Now, I say this only having read the reviews, not the story itself, which may be snotty in and of itself.)

Remember, ffdn is for people as young as 13. *13.* Seriously, do 13-year-olds venturing into writing for the first time need to be told they're hacks? Gentle corrections, perhaps sandwiched in between praises of what the writer does right would be much better. (Just like a lie is more convincing between two truths, a criticism is more palatable between two praises.)

I have two 14-year-old daughters who write. One is a brilliant writer who writes well beyond her years. The other is, well, a 14-year-old girl who likes to write stories about her favorite couple on her favorite TV show. When she first told me she was writing fic, I got all excited and told her she should get an ffdn account and post her stories. She said, no, she's just writing for herself. She doesn't even want me to read them (and yeah, I know most kids don't want their moms to read their stuff, but I write fics about cartoons and she knows it, so it's not like she's going to get judgment from me about the whole fanfic thing.

But anyway, I let it drop when she said she didn't want to share, and the more I think about it, the more I kinda hope she doesn't post on ffdn, because she is not a skilled writer, her spelling and grammar is atrocious, and I can just see her getting slammed with ugly reviews. And who needs that, really? She's not doing this to become a great writer. She doesn't want to hone her skills, like her sister does. And you know what? That's OK. She can write her stories for her own fun and she doesn't ever have to be really good at it if that's not her bag.

But it's so easy to imagine in fandom that writers are all adults and put adult expectations on their work. I guess if you put something out there, you have to expect criticism, but I still just think it's wrong to be nasty about it.

[andi-horton.livejournal.com]

I am all over the map here today so this won't be long or insightful but I had to grin at wearing sensible shoes for Narnia, since for YEARS I planned my nightclothing choices in the chance that Peter Pan might knock at my window and invite me away.

One must plan ahead for these things.

I will return with hopefully more coherent thought processes once I have had something to eat and finished fussing with budgets.

[andi-horton.livejournal.com]

Okay, turns out I don't have as many brilliant thoughts as I'd hoped, but your point about self-projection in a variety of situations is definitely borne out by what I've seen in student work.

I had one eighth-grade boy tune me out in class, then turn in a writing assignment that amounted to a first-person narrative self-insert Narnia fic. It was great. I scraped up every imaginable gradepoint I could find for him, given he'd obviously totally disregarded my actual instructions, and made sure he knew the story itself was very well done even though his mark could have been better (best line ever had to be when Father Christmas looked at the student's in-story persona and said "I don't have a gift for you, because you aren't supposed to be here." I loved it)

Next time I use that project, I'm going to adapt that aspect of the assignment to allow more students to write self-inserts if they like. It's probably much likelier to engage them in the story overall, and their writing, rather than their lack of motivation, can become my main focus in teaching and marking.

Win-win-win.

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

Butting in because oh my goodness, waiting for Peter Pan! My concern wasn't nightclothes, but that the window would be easy to get in. Probably not the safest idea ever, but - magical adventures, you know. :D

[autumnia]

wore sensible shoes to school because, should a portal open and take me to Narnia, I’d be ready. I knew it wasn't real, but if it was real, one does not simply walk into Narnia in sandals

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who had similar thoughts at one point or another. (Really, that could happen one day and all. Always be prepared!) I still think the same these days, though it's more about why I should stick to wearing flatter shoes and not heels even though the latter are so pretty and "everyone else is doing it".

I've stopped following up about the "Ur Doing It Wrong" issue. In the end, it's not worth the time and bother and as elouise82 said, "Really??" We're all adults here and honestly, it makes us all look childish if we keep responding or bashing C's opinions. We've had our say about it and we should just settle on agreeing to disagree with our opinions.

With the Helen/Beatrice storyline, I don't think I've given too much thought on what Susan would think of their relationship. I kind of feel that given her own (and her siblings') experiences in Narnia, it shouldn't surprise her at all. But then again, this IS England where society and morals are different than in Narnia.

And everyone that's fallen into fandom will have explored Mary Sues at one point or another. It's a natural progression and what (I hope) eventually emerges is something that ends up being more creative and original. We all have to start somewhere in order to better appreciate the joys we get out of being a fan of a book, a tv show, film, etc.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who had similar thoughts at one point or another. (Really, that could happen one day and all. Always be prepared!) I still think the same these days, though it's more about why I should stick to wearing flatter shoes and not heels even though the latter are so pretty and "everyone else is doing it".

You say that now, but just trying walking across Ettinsmoor in 2 inch heels or dry clean only slacks. And yes, we all have to start somewhere and even if I don't read such things, I take joy in seeing the creation of others.

[adaese.livejournal.com]

Nobody's parents have ever had a sex life. Fact. Being older than they should be should just make the Pevensies more alert to that kind of thing in anybody at all other than their parents.

Is Parr the kind of chap who quotes Gilbert & Sullivan? Because if so, then Pevensie can't "tell at sight a chassepot rifle from a javelin". Come to think of it, Peter must have to put up with an awful lot of Modern Major General once people start noticing how extensive yet out-of-date his military knowledge is.

[iopgod.livejournal.com]

"Peter must have to put up with an awful lot of Modern Major General"

I like it... it dosnt fit that well, of course: Peter has more than a grasp of elemental strategy, and if he knows his conic sections or even Aristophanes it is probably only under protest... OTOH, when did that sort of joke ever have to make sense??

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

a) Sorry about the bad last couple days. :( That's horrible and indeed so wtf, and I hope that your friend has plenty of good people like you around for support.

b)omg I hadn't seen Sasper! I love hir, whomever it is.

c) TEAM HELEN/BEATRICE FOREVER.

d) LOVE the Mary-Sue stuff - opening that article to read this evening, because I haven't in a while, and it goes so nicely with some of what I was thinking about yesterday.

e) No Brit-speak to offer, but am loving Peter and his paratrooper bros!

[l-a-r-m.livejournal.com]

Agreed here! I loved that paragraph mentioning ice skaters etc, it's so awesome and so very true. I NEVER TIRE OF ENDLESS DISCUSSION OF FANDOM CULTURE.

And the wank is all good fun, but I can't really say I get it. Story looks fine to me.



How about 'Peter doesn't know his back end from his boots' or something...

[heverus.livejournal.com]

Sasper is a ghost. OooOOooOOoooOOooo.

Seriously?

[cal-yn.livejournal.com]

Everyone seems to be going OMG CALYN'S NUTS. What. The. Bleep.

I don't use the same definition of Sue that you do, rth. And I don't see why everyone is getting so up in arms about DA. It states some canon things. That's it. And people like it.

This was NOT what I needed today.

[snacky]

This was NOT what I needed today.

Can I ask what you mean by this?

[lady_songsmith]

I think Mary Sue self-insert is everyone's first foray into writing of anykind. I take objection to the term 'Mary Sue' for the phenomenon, however, which is my issue with a lot of the pieces that get tagged as 'Mary Sue', and your own assertions that, for instance, Morgan is one.

In my mind, a Mary Sue is a particular type of self-insert, one which goes beyond elevation of the mundane self which is natural to the genre (no one pretends to be in the Olympics and take 7th place) and stretches that into ludicrous levels of excellence (they invent a Platinum medal because Mary has shattered all the records while still stopping to help her injured opponent across the finish line). There is a reason she's universally hated, and I don't think it's so much anti-feminist as all that; Mary-Sue is female because so many fandom authors are female, not because the type is more annoying as female. Male Mary-Sues have just as much hatred heaped upon them. (start typing "Wesley Crusher" into google and let it auto-suggest. if "...must die" isn't in the top 5, I'll eat my hat.)

[katharhino.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'm not even sure all Mary Sues are intended as self-insert. Perhaps they do all have some element of self-insert included, but I think some very immature writers (thinking of myself in middle school) just give their characters qualities of perfection because they think that's how you write an admirable character. In the process of creating a character I think you at first want to give your "baby" everything good, and only later realize that impulse is destructive.

I also agree that even if self-inserts are empowering, that doesn't change the fact that they are (usually) bad writing. I don't care how much fun you have with your self-insert and/or Mary Sue, as a reader I likely still find it unbearably boring, if I don't find it maddeningly irritating.

I say usually because I think there may be some exceptions, although I'm not coming up with any off the top of my head.

Side note: I used to check all closets and wardrobes, all the way to the back, just in case.

I am here!

[(Anonymous)]

rthstewart,

I just wanted to let you know that I am here and I am enjoying your writing just as much as I did the first day I discovered you stories. Having more children than Helen Pevensie and full time job does not leave much time for chatting, but your stories and you lj is always my source of good read and good mood.

Hellen

Re: I am here!

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Lovely to hear from you Hellen!!! I hope all is well and that you enjoyed the holidays (if you celebrate them!)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm still here!! And I very much look forward to the arrival of my computer (whose absence is the main reason for my lack of correspondence) to comment more at length and to catch up on my reading. For now, I'm trying vainly to keep up on my phone, and I thought your analysis of the Mary Sue phenomenon quite insightful, and I'm all aflutter wondering if Peter will figure it out, and I nearly cried when Morgan was telling Lucy and Adrian about the bond. Lovelovelove. And that's all I can manage on a phone. With much anticipation,
Syrena

[(Anonymous)]

and I realize that was not coherent. It's Friday. So Sue me.

Had to get a pun in there somewhere.
~S

[muscatlove.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to hear that some readers have abandoned ship, because I find the historical references and perspectives to be the most delightful part of the story besides the character interactions. (I was surprised to see that my mother in law bought me a copy of The Irregulars for Christmas off my wish list!) I have been eating them up and diving into many of the volumes you have referenced in your work -- the perks of working next door to a university library -- and in general I feel the fic has given me a much more detailed perspective on the actual books themselves, in addition to the great enjoyment I've had from reading the full series of fics.

Also, AAH THREE MEN IN A BOAT IS MY FAVORITE BOOK EVER. I just downloaded the digital copy onto my Kindle (along with Diary of a Nobody and Alice, of course) so that I can read it on the bus on the way to work, and I am madly highlighting all my favorite passages. British comedic literature of that era is such a joy.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

The Irregulars is an interesting read and Conant has done another about Julia Child in the OSS. I'd never HEARD of 3 Men In A Boat, but now realize that some of that style is probably where Connie Willis gets her inspiration as do so many other authors. I saw it even here a little a bit in the exchange between two commentators up above. There is something quintessentially British in the writing, the style, the speed, and the dry humor. Very PG Wodehouse and such. In this case, the officer in question, Lt. Brotheridge, was fond of quoting from it according to my source material, so I've got him doing it here in the Exeter pub. What I'm not sure of is whether the book is so well known in 1942 that EVERYONE would know it, regardless of class and recognize famous passages such as the plaster of paris trout. For the same reason, would a Cockney Londoner know lines from G&S? I don't know and if I fret this too much I'll never write anything. But I do have British readers and they notice these things. Two nations separated by a common language, what?

Still reading

[priscipixie.livejournal.com]

I can't believe readers have dropped off from following your story, rth, because how can you stop without waiting to find out what happens?!

Personally speaking, any author would have to go very, very, very wrong before I stopped reading a story I already started. (One example: I actually started out on that Left Behind series, and kept reading till Book Nine before I said no, I absolutely cannot go on, not even for the sake of finding out just how much worse it can get. So yes, I'm a Dedicated Reader by definition.)

But so far as your work is concerned, I just absolutely love, love, love it, although I haven't commented for ages. Real Life schedules and deadlines have kept me off the fandom, but I just caught up with AW from about chapter 9, I think, and it is every kind of wonderful. Thanks very much, and do keep writing. I'm one long-time reader who has no thought of jumping ship, even if I do keep disappearing.

Re: Still reading

[andi-horton.livejournal.com]

I actually started out on that Left Behind series, and kept reading till Book Nine before I said no, I absolutely cannot go on, not even for the sake of finding out just how much worse it can get.

I gave up at Book 8, so you win :P

If you want to enjoy the Awful without having to actually wade through that dreck, Fred Clark at Slacktivist is (slowly) making his way through a commentary on the series. And I do mean slowly (he's just finished book two) but for somebody who had her first panic attack watching that movie, it's kinda healing. Funny, too ;)

Popping By

[linneasr.livejournal.com]

Ach, I love your FF community, Rth! What an interesting thread this all is. The comments about Mary Sue have been insightful and kind; how can young women (if it's a young female author) help from writing a Mary Sue into a favourite ficverse, given that she's trying to figure out a winning personality in RL at that age anyway? It's rough being a pubescent girl, like it's rough being a four or five year old boy, in this society, so I can find it in my heart to forgive (or ignore) Mary Sue.

Err, can Peter not know his arse from his elbow? That's not necessarily British-speak, but more like Quebec-backwoods-Gramma-speak. :-) But still...

Mmm, magical worlds. :-)

Re: Popping By

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I've been meaning to thank you for your lovely, lovely review of 14. You are so wonderful to share so many wonderful thoughts. I do hope all is well. I had thought of some version of doesn't his arse from a foxhole, but was trying to find something creative and age and class appropriate. I like the G&S one but I don't know my English well enough to know how common knowledge of G&S libretto was and among what sorts of folks. Corporal (busted to Private promoted back to Corporal two days after D Day) was a "scallywag" in real life and an irrepressible personality. He had everyone booming out "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" in the Horsa Glider over the Channel at 11:45 PM on June 5, on the way to Normandy.

And yes, this is a lovely group, isn't it? I want to draw little hearts all over everything.

[knitress.livejournal.com]

Fandom has been part of your social network even longer than fanfaction :-)

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

yeah, I'm the one who missed the release of ESB because I still had exams while you all went running off to see it! It's a wound I've never recovered from.

You know, I've heard we'll be able to see young, strutting, lightsaber twirling YOW in 3D in about a month. He was totally sleeping with those handmaidens. And in the Queen's closet. Only a hangover of too much tequila and too many handmaidens would explain that back pick up scene.

I am going to shut up soon

[knitress.livejournal.com]

As someone who just stumbled into this, the whole ur doing it wrong thing seems very parallel to some of the debates in Lewis scholarship/'scholarship'/worship. Joy Gresham, Mrs. Moore, Lewis' lifelong friend Arthur Greeves.

I mean, if you're going to go on at huge length about what the original author would have wanted, shouldn't you, y'know, learn something about his actual life?

Re: I am going to shut up soon

[lady_songsmith]

Interesting! Could you summarize for those of us with reading lists the length of our arms before we get to the Lewis bios? *winning smile*

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I tried to post a reply and it may have been eaten. Yes, please Nanluz do post that discussion of Lewis and that debate!! But maybe after I finish the grocery shopping and can start a clean post!!

Also Nanluz meet lady_songsmith! I think you two will get on very well! (hoping this post works)

[knitress.livejournal.com]

Clean post and I promise later today :-).

[the1hobbit.livejournal.com]

Sorry, hope you don't think I'm a creeper, just wanted to say I LOVE this. To me, if a story is written well and really engaging, add as many 'Original Characters' or Mary Sues as you need and carry on!

Thank you. :)

...I'll stop creeping now. :p

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

LOVE the icon! hello! Have we met before? Are you reading my stuff? Which what how long? Most of all, welcome and no, you aren't a creeper at all! If you wander about, you'll see that there are lots of anons who drop in and out. But goodness this particular post was A VERY BIG THREAD. I've actually been called out over this kerfuffle as a flamer, by name and threatened (though that came down a day or two later). But moving on, it's done and I think things are simmering down again even if the whole approach does still bother me.

I just saw the Fav too, so thank you. That was very kind. Do drop a line and let me know what you are reading, how you found it and what you think of it!