rthstewart | Remix reveals and rambling

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Remix reveals and rambling

Remix reveals are up!!!
I am so lucky!! I ended up remixing the people who remixed me!!

snacky wrote this lovely follow on to Follow the Star and

lotl101 wrote an alternate view of how Lucy and Asim might have met! Go and tell them how wonderful they are!!

Thank you both so much for these wonderful stories!!

I wrote two, a Narnia/Silmarillion xover for Snacky here and a Doctor Who story for

lotl101 about the OTP between Doctor 10 and his Converse trainers.

I made the mistake of looking at word count since November 1 -- AW chapters 10-15, Rat and Sword, and one chapter of H&M totals over 140,000 words in less than 6 months. So, if I'm a little slow getting off the mark at the moment, I guess that's why. But I've started writing and outlining again and actually wrote a few hundred words of H&M dialogue last night. What follows is some writing blather below with the offer to share any thinky thoughts you may have:

First, the post of a day or two ago In which an adventure begins has gotten me thinking seriously about whether or not to actually incorporate that into AW. I could do it. Really. I think. Thoughts? Is it just too far?

Second, I've had some lovely exchanges with a few folks, but I'll just open it up if you have anything to share. I know this will shock you, but I'd not intended to send Edmund to America. But it works for a bunch of reasons and solves some problems I've had and I'm glad for it for a number of reasons. I'm going to finish the current arc of H&M (and if you read the funerary parts of H&M you know how this part must end). I need to do it. There's a big jump between how Edmund deals with his mother in Chapter 15 of AW and where he was emotionally at the beginning of the last chapter of H&M when he goes off to "court" Morgan. Which means we've got some development that happens and Morgan is a part of that, as well as the DT experience. Among the questions/issues

Are Edmund and Morgan going to discuss bonding/children?
Edmund has never thought of himself as responsible for securing the legacy though he was bond by the same oath Peter and Susan took at the beginning of I love not man the less.
What about Morgan's own commitments in the Lone Islands? What is Morgan willing to give up? Where? Why?
Are there sovereign and loyalty issues if she's supposed to be producing heirs for the Lone Islands AND Narnia?
Morgan meets Aslan
We check in on Seth
How does this all bear on how Edmund deals with his father in AW?
How does John feel about Edmund? "Who are you and why are you here?" Or, since Peter is such a disappointment, does he latch on to Edmund? And what's Edmund's reaction?
How might these parallels play out?

There are others and I'm really just blathering but I'm always amazed at what people come up with unlooked for so if something hits you, please feel free to share.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ooh, the tricky plot bits. I'll give it a go :)

I've always sort of thought in the back of my head that Edmund never really thought about children/the legacy until some unwitting Narnian mentions it in passing and he's like, "...Oh. Dear." Or maybe some foreigner. I can't see any of his siblings mentioning it, and I feel like Jalur or Jina can't bring it up, for fear of setting the two of them to running. As for discussion between Edmund and Morgan about bonding, I think that it's "discussed" in that not-really way of theirs, until they absolutely have to.

Or maybe, in taking on Narnia as a client, Morgan sees it as her obligation to discuss the succession--but purely in a business sense of course :)

The biggest impediment I can see to Morgan leaving the Lone Islands for Narnia is the power imbalance for her. It would have to be entirely her own decision, because Edmund would never make her do anything, being afraid that he'd be lording his sovereignty over her. And really, Morgan is leaving a VERY powerful position in her banking house, to be Royal Consort--not even queen. I'm not sure what her incentive is yet, though, so sorry, I'm no help there. (Aslan says something, maybe?)

I hope this helps, even though I feel like I've mostly said, "Don't do this," haha. Good luck!

greaves

Thanks so much! Excellent things for me to chew on. Something that occurred to me after reading this is how much, in this set up, it really is a bad idea, power-wise. She does far more for Narnia going back and using her knowledge of both places to direct policy and finances to Narnia's advantage. Anyone could be consort, right? I think I've figured out how the children thing comes up, actually, and currently I have Aslan expressing frustration with humans generally (he didn't create them, they just ARRIVED and he is a True Beast and really doesn't get it). Aslan also goes to a point that Clio has reminded me of, which is that Edmund assumes that Morgan's low demands on him means everything is fine -- when some of it is that Morgan is really not accustomed to thinking much of her emotional needs at all -- which going to tenut's points below, does make her a bit like Peter.

One of my challenges has always been to retain Morgan's worth and dignity apart from being the womb of the heir.

Edited 2012-04-29 19:28 (UTC)

I think that what it comes down to is practical vs. emotional. Practically, it makes much more sense for Morgan to become the head of Lynch (spelling? can't remember) House, and serve Narnia in that regard. On the other hand, listening to her emotional needs--something she's notoriously not good at--and letting that for once overpower the "smart" choice, is what it looks like needs to happen. Because, really, anyone COULDN'T be consort.

But like adaese mentions, Morgan isn't going to settle for a passive role, either, but I'm not sure that setting precedent in each nation having a dedicated banker is really workable. It would destroy the current structures the banking houses rely on, set everything into upheaval, and generally be a huge mess. And for what? So some king guy can marry a lady? This limits, though, what she can do as Consort. Maybe work in an advisory capacity only...?

Though I do remember you mentioning, in the TSG sequence somewhere, that Edmund and Morgan got bonded on accident. The three-year presumptive bond. I think it was a flash-back scene near the Otter pond? That means they fall into being bonded, and could serve as the impetus for Morgan leaving Lynch House permanently. And she could very well have been trying to find a someone else for consort before then.

Oops, sorry, that was me again.

greaves

About the huge mess this causes, I've had in my head a conversation among the ladies of the court that some Narnian overhears that sets it all out. I had thought Lucy but now, actually... it might be better if it's one of the crows and maybe Jina... Jina won't understand all of it, but Harah would.... and it's along the lines of real consternation. "Oh so that's why my rates went up. Clever of Narnia to co-opt all the houses that way. They used to be independent." That sort of thing. But, to be very Machiavellian about it, Narnia is small and doesn't have a lot of power in the greater world and they've now taken control of the economic heartbeat of the known lands. They may not realize it, but that's what they've done. Errr, I may be committing meta here, which I don't really do. Or I need a degree in medieval banking guilds.

It's all sort of silly straw man since we all KNOW where they end up, so maybe I should just chuck it? They return to Narnia and live happily ever after until the white stag, the end?
Because really I am being silly. And now Ruth goes through little flailing motions about being stupid....

right then. I guess that I do see Morgan posing some very modern problems that are important and we see in AW the power that this relationship has on Edmund and that's important too. I've been thinking all day about your comments about how poor Morgan is at placing her emotional needs as important. And something that (I think) Min and Doctor Dolly have pointed out is going all the way back to BRD that anyone must love Aslan first and Narnia second and the rest shall follow. Morgan doesn't love Aslan, but she does love Narnia and they love her and she provides value to them, apart from her relationship to the King. It's that piece that needs to be preserved.

Thanks so much for this thought provoking stuff. It really helps.

Oh, you're not silly or stupid. Sure, we know where it ends up, but getting to that point is important. There's conflict here and you can't just paste over it with a magical band-aid, that would be bad writing which you don't do, so your worries about resolving all these issues are entirely justified. You can't go from climax to conclusion without falling action. (This is me using literary fancy things to justify my desire for MOAR HAROLD AND MORGAN.)

"I've been thinking all day about your comments about how poor Morgan is at placing her emotional needs as important." Just because she's bad at it doesn't mean that she's incapable. Right now she knows that she's pretty much miserable without him, but I don't know if she's admitted to herself that she loves him, given her feelings a name. That self-realization could prove a very big part of her motivations.

She might realize too, that she's emotionally compromised in the case of Narnia.

"I do see Morgan posing some very modern problems that are important." Yes, this is tricky. We know the endgame for this, too, which is a large part of the trickiness. The answer, too, we know: choice without coercion. It's the getting there bit. Children would have to be her decision. Not necessarily alone, but Edmund would be so concerned about pressuring her that the choice would be mostly hers.

"It's that piece that needs to be preserved." I agree, but I'm hitting a wall so far as solutions are concerned. Morgan is good at: finance, trading, law, technical jargon, numbers. Er...Not really seeing an alternate occupation for her, unless she wants to usurp Edmund's position in acquisitions :D She'd have to do something new, though. It may be that she has to divorce herself from Lynch entirely, and maybe work as an independent financial advisor to the banking houses and nations. There'd be bias implied, of course, but it's less messy that way.

And now I've officially written more for your fic than I have for mine today, haha.
greaves

BACK TO FIC WRITING. I wrote below that in fact Morgan has known her whole life that children were part of her duty to her house. It's part of their job -- to raise children in the tradition of the houses. And she's worried about the stability of her Narnian investment, which she has certainly discussed with the other bankers. It's all very calculating, but it's real.

it's funny. I've written loads of H&M interaction and I've yet to have either of them use the "love" word. I may need to remedy that.

Sorry, I know I am coming to the party late, so this may all be moot, but I was going back and reading some of the character development blogs and this post led to a thought. I do think that Harold and Morgan will probably just stumble along until they are bonded, they are both so emotionally stunted, but your comment above made me think. What if this "concentration of power" you mentioned is what brought Narnia to the attention of Telmar, who had pretty much ignored them up to this point? What if by accidentally leaving Narnia an heir, Edmund also accidentally brings about its downfall? Too dark? maybe.

And this is why I continue to maintain that my readers are way smarter than I am.... I don't know. It's a definite possibility.

One of the reasons John didn't like Edmund (oh, he loved him, dutifully, because he was not a bad man, just a petty one, sometimes - he just didn't like him that much) was because he reminded John too much of himself.

Peter... Peter was like Helen. Like all the things John used to love about Helen, all the things that drew him to her those many years ago, before time and disappointment wore him (and his love) out. All the things that made him want to be a better person. The things that sometimes did make him a better person. Some things that remained with him still. So loving Peter was easy.

But Edmund... Edmund had a hint darkness about him that reminded John of those things he was really not fond of in himself (because remember, John was not a bad man, just a petty one, sometimes), those things that made him harsh, and sometimes a little calculating, and possibly selfish. And petty.

And somehow, it was worse now. Edmund had changed. Of course, all of his children had changed. He could see that - he was neither blind nor stupid. But Edmund's change was more...obvious?irritating? profound? incomprehensible? John found himself struggling to define what it was that bothered him about Edmund now. It's not that he was fundamentally different, or had somehow become more Peter-like (God help them all if that were the case! One Peter was quite enough these days, thank you very much). He was still very much Edmund, and those hints of familiar darkness were still there - but it was as if that darkness had been...softened? enhanced? deepened? tempered? Once again John found himself struggling for a word to express what he felt. And growled in frustration. He was used to understanding Edmund, and not liking what he understood. Now he could not understand Edmund at all and he was bloody confused.

John Peter Pevensie was not a man fond of ambiguities and uncertainties, by training or by inclination. And whenever he considered his younger son, he felt his mind swirl filled with nothing but confusion.

This trip to America was going to be an exercise in frustration, he could see that already.

Wow. I'm amazed. And grateful. Further, following this reasoning, both men married the same sort of woman, as Morgan and Helen both have some similarities -- or it is Edmund seeing those similarities that make him more willing to confide. Thank you. And should you have any more of this insight, please share. I'm astounded it came so quickly after posting.

I've been a devoted reader since The Stone Gryphon, and find myself really absorbed in the character dynamics you created :-)

With this little snippet, it was something you wrote about John not liking/being disappointed/not caring about Edmund, and the first thing I thought about is how we often dislike and/or avoid people who remind us of the things we don't like about ourselves. And then I thought - how would John react to Edmund post-Narnia? because he's still the same person, with the same basic traits - but transformed in a way that John would not be able to relate to (yet?) and would find puzzling and annoying.

Em. Thanks for supplying so much source material and inspiration. This is the first fanfic-shaped thing I have ever written in my life. So.

but transformed in a way that John would not be able to relate to
Transform is exactly the word. I wrote to E and Clio that as I see it, there are two powerfully transformative events -- the grace of Aslan and the gift of Morgan's loyalty and love in spite of that black mark in his past.

And I'm honored that this is the first fanfic-shaped thing you've ever done!!! Please write on as the mood hits! I hugely value this and thank you so much for weighing in and saying hello!

I can't see Morgan settling for anything less than an active role in Narnian governance - which everyone around her, Monarch or Beast, will acknowledge she's well fitted for (at least for a role in finance. Maybe not active diplomacy). However, the moment Edmund announces his Consort is also going to be the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, every princess and tarkheena in the known lands is going to take that as a precedent. Expect Peter & the Queens to have some very tricky proposals to negotiate their way around.

I don't think the heir thing will be a huge issue in the Lone Islands, because a) she's got a brother, b) he's got an elder brother, whose offspring will presumably take precedence, and c) Edmund & Morgan can always have several, in which case one can inherit the country and another the bank, if necessary. It is, of course, far more of an issue in Narnia, where many generations have passed for the smaller, more short-lived beasts without the Monarchs showing any signs of securing the succession.

Thanks so much. The loyalty/nationality issue is something that a reader had been pointed out to me, using Catherine the Great as an example of how it could be perceived if one spouse (or the offspring) are always deemed to be loyal to one country versus another.

Way back in BRD, when I first created the courtship contracts, my thinking, such as it was, was that the monarchs were young and inexperienced but knew their own English histories well enough to want to avoid any dispute over the crown with potential heirs running about and claiming the throne. No Mordred situation, etc. Edmund planned for all contingencies in exhaustive detail in those blasted contracts including the possibility of illegitimate issue -- or false allegations of it. When Morgan signs the contract before arriving her modification, which I've never spelled out, was that any issue was her responsibility alone and that of her family (house). Obviously, none of this is an obstacle now, but it showed (which I also did a bit in H&M) was that the Bankers put a lot of value in children, and they don't especially where they come from so long as it is of their blood, one way or another. Errr, how did I get here?

Morgan has always had that part of her life planned out for her. She's supposed to produce children to raise into the business and I'm thinking a lot about how that colors the prospect of being a consort now.

Excellent points to about what an elevation in her status could mean and how it would be perceived in the greater world. Thank you for sharing your ideas!

I'm supposed to be writing lecture notes not fanfiction notes. Ah the joys of procrastination on a Sunday night :)

Morgan will worry about bonding/children and will discuss it with Aslan. Edmund will be oblivious until the very last minute. Rafiqa will conspire with Dalia to be unavailable and our favorite couple with throw caution to the wind on the very Narnia occasion with too much wine, too little meat, and an overindulgence in bettle racing winnings that have Morgan in a blissed out state. They may even try some of that stuff the Centaurs have.

Edmund will be congratulated on fulfilling his obligation under the bond at which point he will realize Aslan's paw has been whacking at him for some time now and he needs to grow up with a child on the way.

Constance happily arranges for Morgan's duties to travel with her to Narnia. Her father realizes the advantages of having someone available on the continent and agrees to the relays. Morgan does have a way with crows, after all.

I doubt there are soverignty or loyalty issues. It's not as if she's going to produce an heir for Alan. Constance will make sure of that. For all of his mostly silent part, Peter realizes first what this could mean for Narnia and moves to dissolve the contract that is making his brother miserable.

I don't really have much insight into Edmund/John, although apparently I've quite a bit to say about H&M.

doctor dolly

funny you should mention the Centaur stuff... I have been thinking about this a lot in the context of I love not man the less, especially the story told at the beginning and the vows and that Edmund and Lucy were as bound by them as Susan and Peter for all that they didn't go through them. Morgan stoned is a very amusing possibility....

I'm really looking forward to returning to Constance and Maeve. The two of them together terrify me.

Thanks so much and enjoy your sunday!!!

Crack baby fic? You know, no one ever said that Jalur's cub was the first attempt ....

doctor dolly

yeeep.... the thought has been pounding along. It's all just so fan fic trope-ish/cliche-like but I think I could make it work and it could explain a lot about Morgan later. I'm thinking about it.

What questions! Let me see...

Morgan's commitments in the Lone Islands and being torn between the two seem to be the biggest issue; it depends on how you see her own perspective on her home versus what she wants in Narnia, but to me it could believeably go either way. There's also always the option of having a second child be the heir to her line in the Lone Islands, which could be a logical, sensible decision (which they're prone to) even if that never actually comes to be. As someone said before me, I can't see Edmund atually planning to have kids it's and more it's an incidental thing, and maybe not even a welcome one, and since they've no idea that they're going to be sent back, Edmund could well expect that it will still be Peter or Susan's children who inherit and that it's not an issue for him. He and Morgan probably wouldn't discuss it spontaneously, I think - someone else would have to start it off.

I don't think there would actually be huge loyalty issues for Morgan in terms of having children for both sides; they're supposed to be allies and securing the future, so this would help, but soverign issues would come up, yes, in terms of direct hierarchy, and I'm not sure how they'd work out. Well, I'd hope.

Morgan meeting Aslan for the first time could meld with the above points fairly easily - particularly if you want to parallel the candlestick incident.

Edmund and John... I really don't have enough of a mental image of John, even your version of him, to say for certain. He sounds like a man with Expectations, who was raised with Expectations and thinks his sons will (not "should", exactly) be the same as him because there is no other way in his mind. A very narrow-minded sort. Maybe he loves his children even if he's not very good to Helen; maybe he can't show it, doesn't know how to show it, or is the kind of person who shows it by having Expectation and thinks his children will understand that it's love motivating him to push them into what he sees as the best paths for their lives to follow. I could see him latching onto Edmund as a replacement for Peter - which Ed would find insulting, cold, wrong? - or as ignoring him, depending on what his relationship with and thoughts about them were when he left, since he really is treating the boys as he remembers them, not as they are.

Hope that helps - or at least sparks some ideas for you. (Sorry if I have any details wrong.0

Thanks so much! Right. Candlestick!!

I had given no thought to John prior to 1946 so this is 3 years earlier in my thinking. I had initially assumed he just sort of ignores Edmund, but in fairness, Helen did marry him and his children are all pretty remarkable people so, while Helen is REALLY pissed at him, and he's been pretty clueless about Peter and his high expectations for Peter left Edmund, as a child, feeling very left out. It's time to show him in a little more rounded way. Your ideas of a man of Expectations and narrow minded do make a lot of sense. There's also the possibility, that one reader has been saying, that John really loves espionage and the spy's life. He likes the glamor and duplicity and this raises interesting questions about how he feels about what Susan it doing.

Thank you for taking precious time to share!

No worries, glad to have helped a bit :)

I admit to reading this earlier but to answer your questions required more thought and time then I had until now.

Morgan/Edmund & children—I don't think they're the type of people who would ever willingly discuss it amongst themselves. With Jina first and then Rafiqa, I kind of see H&M take it for granted (it will always be "not relevant") that they'll always be informed whether or not it's a good time to mate. They do not see as the Beasts do, nor do they realize the lengths the Guards would go to in order to secure a succession through ANY of the Monarchs, not just through Peter or Susan.

Perhaps if someone brings it up to either of them... though I don't know who would even do so. Jalur does not seem the type, nor would any of the other Guards try to outwardly interfere with a Monarch's business. Maybe the other three Pevensies? I could sort of see Susan at least thinking about it, given how Peter can't love just one person and Susan remembering her own failures with Rabadash.

Morgan and the Lone Islands—you know, I see her a bit as the type to manage both her life in the Lone Islands and in Narnia. I could see her trying to make both work and perhaps it does at first (she can compartmentalize her life and responsibilities depending on where she is at the time). It's only after the Pevensies are gone that I see her giving up her life on the Lone Islands, because that's when she knows she's with child and I see her loyalty to Edmund override anything else. She already lost him and perhaps she feels it's her duty to at least try to carry on all the work (contracts, intelligence, etc) he did for Narnia.

And with Constance determined to get Morgan to stay in Narnia, I don't think there'd be much issue about loyalties and heirs. All the old House rules have been dissolved with Edmund's appearance there, and seeing how she, Maeve and Morgan are rewriting the Code, I think Constance would be very clever and foresee the possibility that Morgan would provide an heir to the throne.

Seth—I would love to see a bit more about him, actually. You did state somewhere in one of the stories that Seth did reform in the very end. Does he ever reconcile with Maeve? Would he want to return to the Lone Islands, or perhaps he made his home on the Continent after he served his time.

Edmund and his father—I could go either way on this one. You've written that discussion with Helen in a way that I'm fine whether or not the two will meet in the States. If John decides to see Edmund, I think he'll be in for quite the shock. Even with Helen noticing the differences in her children, she still had a hard time coping with the changes. For John, a man who has barely seen his children in a long time, I think the changes he'd see in his younger son (and subsequently the others) will be very, very surprising. Tebbitt's first impression of Edmund—whom he barely knew anything about, other than the little bits Susan may have told him—was that he was not a fifteen-year-old boy. Imagine what it'd be like for someone who knew Edmund his whole life.

As for how he feels about Edmund, that's hard to say. I think father and son really are strangers to each other. The only difference is that Edmund probably has a better understanding (through his Mother and what she has/has not said, possibly hearing of some things through Susan, and his own adult experiences and emotional maturity in Narnia) of his father's behavior and motives that John has of his son.

Perhaps their meeting will be very much like the one George had with his own wife & daughter at the start of "Rat & Sword". Even if John had mistresses in NY (a possibility that was implied in AW), I think he'd at least make a show of trying to keep his family's best interests at heart. For a spy, he'd want to give off an appearance that everything is in order and that no, there are no family troubles back home at all.

And to your earlier comment about "I made the mistake of looking at word count"... this is why I've been trying to write fic in a simple text editor. Seeing word count on the screen is very hazardous for me, because for multi-chapter stories, I always have a minimum word count in mind and am determined to hit that mark always. :-)

Thanks so much for that long and thoughtful reply and so many ideas. If I'm being vague and not following up on things it's because I'm seriously chewing them over. I don't have answers. One thing though that occurred to me in the car today is that for all that Harold and Morgan could just try to ignore all this, there are two important things about Morgan. First is that she understands the duty of raising children into the family business -- it's expected of her, it's always been expected of her, and while she's immune from some of that, she's always known that was one duty to her house and Morgan is, as a Linch, very loyal (they really are Hufflepuffs). Second is that she's invested substantially (emotionally and monetarily) in Narnia's success and that means a succession. She's got that thing in the back of her mind, certainly reinforced by the other bankers, that magical appearances and disappearances are lousy investment planning. If she doesn't see anyone else doing something about it, she might say, to heck with this, I'll take care of it myself. "Here, have an heir." I've not really thought of her in this position before, but it's consistent with what's there. Maybe it comes later, maybe it comes now, but she IS worried about it, and rightly so....

I need to shut up and start writing. I may write this whole arc, beginning to end, ... it's going to be a few weeks. I don't think it's hard exactly but there are nuances of character interaction. I've got this whole thing with Edmund, Seth, Morgan and the Dwarfs going on in my head. Plus Aslan and stuff and more stuff. I'd been thinking about a revel while they are on the road trip and now I'm thinking of putting that once they are back at Cair...

Thanks so much (and I was so happy to see you post the Rilian piece!!!)

'E'

I completely agree with the discussion of John seeing himself in Edmund, and not liking what he sees, but I'd also throw in the issue of birth order in there in regards to how John views Edmund.

Edmund's a second son and a third child, and that's a huge part of what determines his character in LWW. I'm not trying to imply that parents don't love their other children as much as they love their oldest, but no successive children get the undivided attention of their parents that the oldest recieves.

If we're assuming that the Pevensies at this time (the 20's and 30's) follow the established gender roles, than Helen's going to do virtually all of the child rearing-cult of domesticity, and all that -- and John's going to see his kids for about 30 minutes to an hour every day when they're cleaned and they napped and are supposed to be well behaved.

And Peter is impressive, and well behaved, because he's Peter, and Susan is his little girl, and into this household with a 3-4 year old and a 2 year old comes a new baby that's not as easy or accomadating as either Peter or Susan, and as he grows, reminds John of himself somewhat (esp. contrasted with Peter) and then Lucy, cute and sweet and friendly with everyone comes along when Edmund is 1-2, and Ed's pretty much easy to overlook in the fathering department because he's the most difficult one, and John doesn't want/have to deal with him.

So I'd argue that John doesn't really know his son -- never really knew him -- even before LWW, and what he did know, as a previous poster said, reminded him uncomfortably of himself.

I was just thinking that Edmund was a fussy child, too. Colicky, rotten sleep schedule, doesn't need nearly as much as sleep as those around him, and eliminated naps too early. He spit up a lot too, maybe a latent milk allergy.

And Morgan, Morgan. Why are you so hard to write?

Yes to the fussiness. (And no, I'm not projecting. Really). But for John, who likes order, that means that meals are cold/late, Helen's too tired from lack of sleep, and there's less peace and quiet in what was previously a pretty tranquil household, and Edmund is the reason. And John doesn't like the disruptions.

And Edmund continues to be disruptive, upsetting the order of things, even after he returns from Narnia -- after all, John wants/expects Peter, not Edmund, in NY.

Sorry, I'm no help with writing Morgan, but I wish you the best of luck!

Your analysis of John in the domestic sphere is pretty much where I was putting him. In our own community that still is not uncommon -- Dad works All The Time and mom stays home and Does Everything. Dad is nominally more involved -- maybe Sundays are free, but there are families in our neighborhood where I have never, every seen the father because he is always at work. How can a man possibly know his children under those circumstances?

I have been fascinated by everyone's suggestions for Morgan and very much looking forward to more H and M. The suggestion about Morgan becoming the equivalent of Narnia's "Chancellor of the Exchequer" is a really good one. HOwever, wouldn't she either have to give up her involvement with her banking house or House Lynch just work exclusively for Narnia? Otherwise the conflict of interest would be too much for the other nations.

Also, as Chancellor I can see her having to interact with Susan a lot. As you have described it, I see Susan as being in charge of the domestic Narnian economy--farming and food supply anyway--which is huge for a non-industrial society.

Could Morgan simply stay with the bank, formally become Narnia's banker (giving up Archenland) but do the equivalent of telecommuting? She would have to travel a fair bit and presumably be away from Narnia during the annual audit, but it might be made to work at least for a while.

And think of the possibilities for Rat and Crow for financial espionage! Or is that dishonourable and not a good long-term financial strategy?

Wherever this goes it's going to be a great story!
ClaireI

I didn't express that very well - I'd meant to say, Morgan wouldn't give up her position in the bank for anything less. Obviously trying to combine the two positions would be as unthinkable as a Cabinet Minister giving advice to one side in a business takeover that he's supposed to adjudicate - and that's just unthinkable.

I'm glad to hear this point expressed so firmly and by several readers. I was taking to myself in the car about it this morning. Something that I've realized that is incredibly important to me (and I may start a separate post on this) is that I'm having a hard time thinking of instances of women in genre who both fulfill a successful romantic interest and yet also retain their professional competency/autonomy. So much of literature and media is devoted to getting to the consummation of the relationship -- whatever that point is -- and very little to the work of it afterward. It's not terribly romantic, it's work and it's work to write a functioning if occasionally dysfunctional relationship between a couple. I'm sure there are some examples (I keep thinking of Zoe and Wash and Tommy and Tuppence). Yet in our own, real lives, so many women are doing precisely this -- the balance of work, familial obligations, and romance with a partner. We know it's hard and so the fact that I'm slowly working through this in a fic isn't surprising either, I suppose.

Most of Lois McMaster Bujold's characters, for a start - and the ones that don't (Ekaterin's first marriage, for example) clearly admire the ones that do. Naomi Novik's Longwing captains - though there the (human) relationship is seen as rather getting in the way. But among less gifted writers, I agree, writing about relationships once they've got as far as "I will" is clearly too much like hard work.

You had a question at the beginning that I think noone has commented on, because you've been discussing the Pevensies and Morgan instead (and I enjoy reading these discussions nearly as much as reading the stories ...):

"First, the post of a day or two ago In which an adventure begins has gotten me thinking seriously about whether or not to actually incorporate that into AW. I could do it. Really. I think. Thoughts? Is it just too far?"

I think those - in every sense AU - adventures would work better as separate stories. Perhaps even best as commentfic, but possibly as complete stories - separate ones.

You have the whole AW arc, then you have some Narnia stories (including H&M), then you could have the third setting as well, being the Other Worlds. This group of stories could still be connected to the AW head canon - or perhaps to the Nobody Dies Everbody Lives Narnia AU instead. I think they would be lots of fun :-)

Agreed. They belong separately, where we can mess around I mean develop the ideas more fully.

Thank you both. I'm still thinking about it and I feel a bit like I've got a dragon by the tail here. As one person remarked to me, when I was musing on a particular crack-tastic relationship possibility, "uhhhh, okaaay, Ruth. I'm not really seeing it, but you've sold me on weirder things before." Oh the benefits of having neither editors nor deadlines. "Let's try this!" Of course the last time I sent up an AU trial balloon, it landed with a thud.

Agreeing with both of the above as well. Lucy and Asim's adventures should definitely be separate from AW because they are not really relevant to the main plot and it works better as individual stories/comment fics. (Also, I wish I had more to fully explore the possibilities of where they go, but life's been rather busy lately...)

First of all, please, apologize my horrible English (I am really sorry for all gramatical mistakes) and secondly – it is the first time I have written a review or suggestions to a story so, I hope it will make sense..

As regards Edmund and his father – in my opinion John hasn´t known his own children – of course, he loves them but in a very distant way. He loves them because they are his children, not for who they really are.

Before the war, John had spent most of his time at work and when he came home, he wanted to hear that everything was going well not problems or complications. In my opinion that´s the reason why Peter and Susan (and Lucy too, but I think the reasons were different) were always his favorite.

Peter and Susan were perfect – they had always met the expectations, had no problems at school – it was easy for John to love them. On the other hand, to love Edmund was a challenge – it took some effort to see his good sides, his sensitivity and intelect and not just the problems he caused. I think it was to much effort for John. I don´t blame him for it – it is how the society worked at that time and he just did the same thing to which he was brought up.

The situation after the war is very different – Peter and in my opinion, Lucy as well, will be a disapointment for John. Peter has postponed his studies at university and declined the position in Washington, Lucy used to be his little girl, smiling and optimistic all the time and now – she is angry, revolting against the social rules and church and doing many things a woman shouldn´t be doing (in John´s opinion). I think in John´s eyes only Susan stays the same – well, it is because she can hide her real personality very well and although John has to see the changes, it is not difficult to convince himself that it is just the impact of the war.

Concerning Edmund - I think he is a mystery for John. His transformation is so big that even for John it is not possible to say „the war has changed him“. He is confused but he doesn´t want to know the reason(s). It is much safer that way, you know, if you ask to many questions, you can get information you really don´t want to know. (On the contrary Helen is capable to free herself from the stereotyp thinking, she sees the changes in her children and is brave enough to look for the reasons although she is frightened and not absolutely sure if she really wants to know the truth.)

In my opinion John has decided not to seek the grounds but to make use of the change in Ed. He will try to plan Ed´s future (for Edmund´s own good...) and to make Edmund be his ally in the family (John has problems with his wife, he is disappointed with Peter and Lucy, Susan is away.. If he wants to pretend that everything is all right - he will definitely need an ally.)

About Ed´s reaction – I think he will understand his father´s plans and motives. I can see him decline his father´s offers and suggestion - calmly, politely but firmly. I don´t think Edmund will be angry - after all, their emotional bond is really weak, his father is actually a stranger for him.

I hope that it isn´t too chaotic and that I didn´t describe John as a monster. Well, I think he is weak, that he was satisfied with the way the things were and he doesn´t want to face problems (it is easier to pretend that nothing changed) but otherwise he is quite good man.

I wish you a lot of luck with writing!

Jana

Thank you so very, very much. Please, never, every apologize for your grammar -- that readers are able to do what they do in a foreign language astounds me and I'm very grateful. You have very neatly set out a lot of where my own thinking has been leading. I've seen for some time the idea of Susan developing into a more conservative thinking Cold War Warrior (and some of her tensions with Peter come over this as she struggles to understand how the High King and Emperor of the Lone Islands becomes such a man of the people). I've been thinking too that John will try to recruit Edmund into espionage (and maybe even Cambridge) and as set up in AW, Asim has grave doubts about Edmund's suitability. I'm giving a lot away there, but this is a conflict that occurred to me once I decided to send Edmund to America.

Thank you again, so much. If you are inclined, do let me know what country you are from, either here or in an anonymous review on ff.net. FF.net has a way of telling me where international readers come from, but I never look at my tracking statistics. Thank you again

Thank you very much for your kindness. I am from the Czech Republic (Prague).

I owe you some suggestions about Edmund and Morgan. I am sorry - it is quite chaotic.

I think that Edmund and Morgan have to discuss their bonding. In the flashback about Lucy and Aidan´s bonding – Morgan gives some advices to them – so, obviously she and Edmund went through the same ritual and such an act should be based on mutual decision. The matter is when it is discussed – after it is revealed that they are already married or sometime later?
Their marriage was an accident and I can see two possible ways how they can deal with it:
1) They can say that nothing has changed. Yes, they are married but it was an accident and if it doesn´t work, they can ask Peter to dissolve their marriage. Sure, there is a problem with the planned acquisition with Meryl but well, if the monarch haven´t known about the existence of the law, the bankers cannot know about it either and unless they make an official announcement.. In this scenario, they can discuss the bonding several months later, when both of them will be prepared.

2) They can discuss the matter immediately after Edmund finds about their “marriage” and to try to cope with the situation.

I am not sure what will be better – it depends on the fact when both of them realise that they love and need each other
Particularly the situation with Edmund is complicated – the fact that before the visit in Archenland he is not even prepared to call their relationship as “relationship” is really frustrating. The discussion about his past and Morgan´s reaction have changed many things but is he really prepared?
About their marriage - I am not sure who should be the messenger of the “happy news”– maybe Chief, because he knows Edmund´s personal history and he understands even if he is sometimes tired and angry with the way how Edmund is behaving, (I don´t know why, but I cannot imagine Jina in this position), maybe Susan – I can see her to look for the reason why all Beasts are acting so strange and why they seem so angry then Morgan is looking for a suitable consort for Edmund. Moreover, library is hers and Ed´s place. Peter could do so, but he really doesn´t want to interfere in their relationship and I think he will do anything not to be the chosen one. Susan is practical – she knows that somebody has to do that and because there are no volunteers, she will do it.

Concerning the children and securing the legacy of the Narnia crown – I don´t think that Edmund has ever thought about it. For Morgan – to have children is a part of her duty to her House, in the Lonely Islands it is a business that don´t have to be discussed. The problem is that with Edmund it will be different, it won´t be just business, it is an emotional thing. Can she start discussion about children when she is not sure whether she is prepared to have a child? And what should she do if Edmund didn´t want to have children?

I don´t see Morgan to have any official position in Narnia politics. According to the courting contract the position of the king´s or queen´s consort will be very weak (it is in a flashback in AW) and Morgan has always wanted to act in accordance with it. She will not ask Edmund to give her an official position and I am not sure if Edmund offers a position to her of his own accord. He doesn´t want to pressure her to abandon her position in Lynch and it won´t be possible to be a banker and client at the same time. Anyway, I am sure she will be very active (unofficially). Edmund is used to consult many issues with her and she is not able to stay silent and not to let her opinion known.

As regards her position among bankers – I think Morgan won´t be willing to leave her position in Lynch. She is a great banker and she knows it. She is not able to doing nothing and with no official position in Narnia, she will want to continue with her work as a banker (at least during winter). The question is if it will be possible in a political point of view - it is a conflict of interest..

Well, that´s all (at least for today), have a nice evening and thank you for all your stories, they are the best I have ever read.

Jana

Thank you so much, Jana. From your name and your style of writing, I did assume Eastern European -- I spent a year in the Balkans after the wall came down. I'm not going to comment over much except to say that you are obviously a very careful reader (I'm always shocked by this) and that you and I are thinking along similar lines, though as you rightly point there is a significant WHEN here as well and there's some personal growth that still needs to occur. I do wonder why on earth people still some interested when I've given it all away???

This has all been hugely helpful. I need to start writing now and I just hope I can deliver something! Thank you so much for stepping up and answering/writing. I really appreciate it!

"I do wonder why on earth people still some interested when I've given it all away??? "

Because we want to see you describe it as well - all you've given us in advance is the summary. ;-)

I haven't had time to read through the other comments and think about H&M, but as far as Lucy & Asim & the rings, as much as I love it as a further AU I'd leave it out of AW. It doesn't really seem to fit with AW's themes of applying the lessons of Narnia to Here. Or I suppose, if it is added to AW, it should be either a background bit (Lucy stays sane by periodically zapping off to other worlds, the specifics of which we hear little) or break it out into a companion pieces like Rat & Sword, where you can develop whatever the major point Lucy gets from her escapism on its own.

Within AW with regards to Lucy, I'm personally more interested in seeing her political/religious development, and seeing her figure out how to make friends (such as the intriguing Alice) and deal with other feelings (ahem, Jack) in her current situation. Alice, being rather unusual and mysterious herself, seems likely to be someone Lucy is most likely to turn to with all her siblings "on assignment" and even Eustace and Jill not fully able to understand her age displacement. One thing I like about Alice is that her mysterious aspect is simply that she takes everything so well in stride. I have no idea if there's really much of a story behind that or if it's simply a personality trait somehow, but it makes her very different from most of the cast.

As usual, just my opinions, feel free to ignore!

I should be getting to bed but then your comment just popped up and I just HAD to stay up and read and muse. If you do have time at some point to drop me a line or comment on H&M and John, I'd love to hear it. But heh, this is you know, totally frivolous.

Poor Jack. A day will come when, bitterly disappointed, he gets rip roaring drunk and throws up all over his father. This will, in turn, set other things in motion. I'm intrigued that you liked Alice so much. She showed up in the comment fic, Give the Pevensies a friend. She's a very smart girl and had probably read too many Lives of the Saints and Mystics and maybe Saint Julian of Norwich.

I hope all is well!!!

All is well, but busy again- the tail end of that monster project at work came back to drag me in for a few more weeks. At least the actual work involved in this part is more fun, and a successful end is truly in sight.

I finally got a chance to catch up with all the comments here and find myself both fascinated and with surprisingly little to say. For H&M in particular I have nothing to add this time (and I'm coming in so late in this phase anyway). I'm so very amused at how a bit part character has become so central to the entire saga. In a way, Morgan most fully represents what they all gave up (not to dismiss Aidan, but he and Lucy hadn't gotten quite as far along, even if they were getting there much more smoothly).

I want to have more to say about Edmund and his father, but

tenut nailed it so precisely for me that I don't feel compelled to step in. I've so often observed my own bad reactions to people who remind me of my worse traits (more often in recent years- in my 20s I was not really conscious of this sort of thing). I definitely see this as a round of befuddlement rather than any sort of breakthrough. Laying the groundwork for a future discussion/confrontation. I'm excited to peel back the curtain on John as he's one of the plot's biggest mysteries at this point as our view of him has been so carefully constrained (matching the siblings' view nicely).

As for another mystery... I noticed Alice in that Give the Pevensies a Friend fic and was enchanted immediately. Of the four, Lucy most desperately needs a friend because so many pursuits are denied her. She needs support not because she's at all weak, but because she is so very constrained and so cut off from everyone who might understand. Alice seems to understand without needing to understand why.

I hope things are going well with you, and if you feel written out, take a break! Set it aside, or write a wacky "Asim and Lucy careening about the multiverse" fic as a breather :-)

Wow, that's an epic number of words - I don't know how you're not 'written out', especially given some of the fandom angst you've been copping as well. All the points above are fascinating, and I'm looking forward to seeing how they play out.

The Edmund/John one is an interesting one. If he's an academic turned spy, then presumably John isn't thick, even if he's not very nice. That being the case, he's presumably going to pick up on at least some of the skills, even if he hasn't the faintest notion where they've come from - maybe he's arrogant enough to look in the mirror and go 'look at me, aren't I good, oh, magic sperm creating offspring in my image' (or something like that.

On the other hand, in this time period, how much interest/knowledge do fathers have of their offspring, moreso when they're not firstborn sons and heirs (even if that is a fairly upper class sort of conceit). I'm also imagining that this is more exacerbated by the fact that so many men have been away at war for extended periods.

Drawing on my father's experience with my grandfather, I would also think that Edmund may not really know his father all that well, again because of emotional distance and/or physical absence. Of course, he's more observant than the average teen boy, but I do wonder what he'd make of his father, given that in a lot of ways they're probably not much more than distant acquaintances, maybe even strangers.

Lots of interesting issues to ponder here, that's for sure.

I admit I'm feeling a little "written out" at the moment. What I'm working is going incredibly slowly and I keep bumping around the edges. I know that Morgan has a whole list of tough questions for Aslan. I'm just not sure what he says in response. And I'm trying to figure out just how reluctant she is, if at all, to return to Narnia and when they start sleeping together again. In short, I'm trying to figure out just how upset she is. So, I'm dithering a lot.

As for John and Edmund, I'm really buying into the time and place argument -- he's a conventional, 1940s father and he didn't know his children that well before he went to war.

so, dithering about Morgan....

Hallo
I feel like I'm coming late to the party again, so if you're already heading in another direction, no worries!

About Ed's emotional maturing: it strikes me that we've all assumed Morgan's pregnancy in Acceptance of the Terms is her first. What if it's not? What if she and Edmund do become pregnant (accidentally, of course), all sorts of complications ensue (including a public bonding, some resentment and confusion and joy on all sides, some decisions made by Morgan and Rafe regarding her status in the Lone Islands, etc) -- and then, when it's all done, around the beginning of the second trimester, she miscarries? Lots of room for maturing there...

And a few darned good conversations with Aslan. Yes, Morgan and Aslan must meet, and if he has (somehow) won her heart through an imagined situation like I outline above, she can throw a candlestick at him and it's alright, later on. He can take it, as she's already done worse and He still loves her.

It does take H & M out of the Georgette Heyer-like mood you've built, but would allow for some interesting dark corners to be explored.

Regarding John & Edmund: I really liked what tenut wrote, above. Edmund stands in John's blind spot: John can't see his second son, as the boy casts a shadow of the same shape. Then, when Edmund arrives in the US, John is forced / inspired to come to terms with the light that is shining from his son now. Maybe shining some light into John's own shadowy bits...?

Seth: If Seth fails to redeem himself, it does make Edmund all the more remarkable.

Hope this helps, even if as compost for the thought process!
Hugs

I am ever so slowly working through H&M. This has all been hugely helpful and I've gotten other comments in email too. I've also been amazed at how closely people have read things and really thought about it. I wish I could say I like what I've done so far... it's... not quite where I want it. I do wonder if I'm just tired too. I keep getting distracted and look at a week's worth of writing and have barely 5,000 words. When I'm on a roll, I can do that in a day. what I really want to do is bring back to more of a romp. Make it fun, like in BRD, for a bit, and it keeps getting angsty. I want to show the fun times -- what was good about the relationship. So, I'm struggling. Oh well. It will come eventually.

I really appreciate it. something I am noticing is that I'm not fading to black as much-- or something. There's a maturation that's going on here. It's not explicit at all -- it's still very firmly T rated -- but it's also really going to something that reads more adult and the work of a relationship.

You've written SO MUCH over the past few months, Ruth, it's no wonder you need a bit of an in-breath. Pause. Reflect. I'm sure your speed with come back!

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Morgan's role

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Thoughts...

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