rthstewart | Going, going, gone

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Going, going, gone

autumnia continues the thankless task and yeoman's effort of the never-ending edits and beta for the Narnia Big Bang, now at 55,500 words, plus introduction, glossary, cast of characters, and notes. In our most recent exchange, we were trying to remember what, over the last 3 years and so many words, should be mentioned in Rat and Sword, Susan and Peter, going to war. We came up with the following:

The fate of Captain David Lowrey after the Dieppe Raid
The knife Asim loaned to Peter on the Oxford train platform
The Hierophant

Is there anything else you can think of? If so, drop a line! At my age, memory is not what it was.

It's funny to post this as the first 3 chapters of TSG Part 1 went up 3 years ago today. Chapter 1 got one review, from

ilysia_039. By chapter 3, I'd picked up

autumnia, miniver and Doewe. Sniff. It makes me all mushy and sentimental and ever so grateful.

Chapter 1 - Digs, In which Digory receives an Alarming Invitation
Chapter 2 –Tetchy, In which there are Alarming Introductions and Peter mistakenly mentions King Kong
Chapter 3 -Tea and Sympathy, In which Peter starts an argument about camels and there is Inappropriate Conversation

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Happy birthday!
Truly, I can hardly believe it's been three years already...

Krystyna

Happy anniversary!

I don't know what ought to go in there - it seems a bit late for requests, particularly if they're going to involve a total re-write. But things I'd like to see somewhere or other are a) is Asim ever going to meet Lucy? b) how is Mary getting on with her theory about gryphons? and c) do we get to find out more about the original incident with the moles (the Narnian one), which Susan thinks back to in tQSiT?

Oh, and will Eustace ever find the two matching pillars in the Oxford Museum (they do have one duplication, albeit of small side pillars not the main ones. You'll like this - the pillars in question are Green Serpentine).

No, it is not too late. I added a paragraph about the knife last night! It depends on the complexity, of course, but I've got time and want to be sure I get in what needs to be there and what people are expecting.

a) is Asim ever going to meet Lucy?
Yes, very, very soon in AW. This was actually supposed to be a part of this story, but I cut way back on the introduction and it really belongs in AW, not here, where the focus is steadfastly on Peter, Susan and war.

b) how is Mary getting on with her theory about gryphons?
Very well the reveal of which shall occur when Peter, Eustace, Jill, Polly, and Digory return to the House of Russell in the fall of 1946, in a chapter entitled, "Gryphon in the Ballroom."
and
c) do we get to find out more about the original incident with the moles (the Narnian one), which Susan thinks back to in tQSiT?
This is a story that had its genesis in my color challenge response, Black as Rat and Crow. The story was to be Black, White, and the Gray In Between but it was too large and complex and grim. The story of the ring of Mole spies and their leader the traitorous Faun Mr. Noll has now been referenced several times, in TQSiT, AW, and The Palace Guard, and H&M. After seeing a bunch of posts exhorting Narnia as a land of capital punishment, I wanted to set up a story that explores traitors, murder, spies, the burden of a just sentence in the hard case, and suicide -- all now hinted at it in Edmund's conversation with Col. Tom Clark in AW about justice for Nazi war criminals, Edmund's mercy for the likes of Seth Stanleh in H&M, and his lament for the wrongdoer in TQSiT. It's a standalone and bleak, probably less than 20,000 words and not something I'm in a rush to do. If I start seeing lots of Narnia fen arguing for capital punishment in Narnia, that would motivate me to write this as response sooner than I might otherwise.

d) will Eustace ever find the two matching pillars in the Oxford Museum

He will now! This I think is for after the war! And I did not know this about the pillars!!! How lovely!!! Thank you!

Edited 2012-03-22 17:44 (UTC)

We know the laws of Archenland at least permit capital punishment. I'd have said, given Edmund's reluctance to press for it in Rabadash's case, that any Narnian laws allowing it had either been repealed or quietly allowed to lapse. I mean, if he doesn't want to insist on it for the man who actually managed to reduce Queen Susan to tears (and how much strain had he put her under already to have that effect? She's not a shrinking lily anywhere else in the books, for all her reluctance to kill), then under what circumstances will he approve the death penalty?

Gaah! That was me, Adaese! LJ is playing tricks with my login again.

Under what circumstances would he approve the death penalty?

In my head canon, there are not any, for many reasons, of which your citation to Edmund's very thoughtful discussion of Rabadash is one. Further, given the death that Jadis freely administered, to Aslan, to Narnians, and would have done to Edmund, I can't see it being something they could or would embrace without bringing in echoes of her reign, never mind what Aslan would have to say about it. But I've found a lot of readers and writers in this verse who disagree and who take a more medieval or more judgmental point of view -- the death penalty, after all, is pretty common in most of the US. I've wanted to tell a story that really sets out my alternative view and how the Pevensies come to that decision. Bully pulpit much?

The death penalty was also widely taken for granted in the UK in the '40s - I understand attitudes changed quite sharply in the fifties, following the Rillington murders case (in which an innocent man, Timothy Evans, was hanged for the murder of his infant daughter largely on the testimony of his landlord, serial killer John Christie. Christie was later shown to be responsible for at least eight other murders and Evans' conviction was eventually overturned, but it was a bit late for Evans by then!).

My headcanon Edmund certainly wouldn't approve the death penalty under any circumstances - Rabadash's actions, after all, are about as vile as you can get in a children's book, and if Edmund's instinct under those circumstances is for justice as a means to redemption, rather than as a vehicle for vengeance, then I don't think there's any force on earth that would lead to him endorsing an execution. Having said that, Edmund does seem quite keen on the idea of chopping Rabadash into little tiny pieces in battle or a duel. I'm not at all sure I understand why this is more acceptable!

I have always read Edmund there as more concerned that Rabadash not be executed before any other options had been considered. Everyone else in the room is all for summarily chopping his head off, and I see Edmund as taking on the Devil's Advocate role. I think if Aslan hadn't intervened and a reasoned discussion had come to the conclusion that death was warranted, he'd have no problem with it.

Feeding the trolls, Narnian style?

Peridan knew he'd blundered almost before he finished speaking, as one royal countenance after another settled into an expression of Right Royal Obstinacy. If only he'd let that blithering idiot Darrin speak first!

And this is why I want to do the story. People do have different views of it and coming to something other than torture and execution of a criminal takes some effort, given the time period the Pevensies came from and the milieu they were in. I tend to assume that there's a sort of --- and I've done no research into this, so I'm just blathering based on too much fiction reading -- warriors' code which finds death in battle to be both honorable and a form of judgment. If you've got it coming to you, chances are, it's going to find you in the heat of battle, so the assumption goes. Once swords or guns are laid down, combatants becomes prisoners of war and all THAT entails. I know there's lots and lots out there on this, and I'm not proposing to go there now.

I don't write and am not terribly interested in a true medieval Narnia in terms of codes of conduct. I'm interested in the cultures of the Beasts and Beings and juxtaposing that on the World War 2 mentality of the Pevensies and over that the modern conservative Christian gloss of American readers. Understanding that I'm stereotyping and generalizing, the death penalty is very, very popular among a segment of highly religious Americans -- it is done in 34 of 50 American states and the assumption is further that torture is a legitimate means of extracting information. My instinct is that among American readers of the Chronicles, they overwhelmingly would assume capital punishment would be practiced in Narnia and that torture in highly urgent, critical situations would be justified. I think the Pevensies generally and Edmund in particular, are interesting characters to explore these issues. Some day.

I suspect you're right about that segment's perception of the death penalty... given that one can be liberal, atheist, and against the modern death penalty and still firmly believe it would have been practiced in Narnia. And yes, probably torture too.

Yes! As I said, I think it takes some effort to get anything other than the conclusion that there would be death penalty and possibly torture. I think it's interesting, but way dark and not easy.

In the matter of Rabadash, I'm far more inclined to think that his life would have been spared because you don't execute the Crown Prince of a sovereign nation unless you WANT to go to war. I touched on that briefly in "Walk Long Enough"; the question of what you do with foreign nobility and the protection rank provides even from blatant provocation.

I very much doubt Narnia had the kind of harsh penal code that Middle Ages or Early Modern Europe had, which would cut off limbs for theft and hang repeat offenders. But when you get into what, even modernly, we consider capital crimes -- stepping away from capital punishment brings with it a host of complications. First you need a reason to think leaving them alive is a good idea. Are they redeemable? By what measures? How will you tell when they have been redeemed? What do you do if they backslide? (And if you count them redeemed, and release them, and they commit further crimes, are you then responsible for the harm?) Away from philosophy, practical considerations abound: you need somewhere to imprison them, it needs to be kept secure enough they can't escape, someone needs to tend their essential needs, you have to provide food for them -- and if you're going to keep them humanely, clothing, materials for hygiene, light, air, exercise, mental occupation, etc. -- all of that costs money. Which goes right back to philosophy, in the sense of: Why allow someone who has put themselves outside the pale of society to be a drain on your resources? Isn't the treasury better put towards doing good for those who support the social norms?

And so forth.

I agree modern prisons simply don't fit, at either a practical level or within the highly romanticized medieval feel of Narnia. There are other alternatives, though, such as exile or outlawry, which could cover quite a range of offences. Annoy the authorities slightly? Suggest that their continued good health might be closely related to getting the first ship away from here. Do something really outrageous? Chase them into the Western Wild. Do something really, really outrageous? Chase them north, in the general direction of those man-eating giants.

Oh, certainly, imprisonment isn't the only option for, say... theft. Or political crimes. But when you run into things like murder you slam back into that philosophical wall again: I guarantee you Archenland will NOT be happy with you if the murderer you exiled then goes on a killing spree in THEIR territory. And 'execution by giant' is still execution (and doing it yourself is probably more humane).

If the death penalty was used in neighbouring countries, and if there were plenty of stories among Narnians which mention its existence in pre-Jadis Narnia, then I suspect, thinking about it, the likely reaction of most Narnians to its use by their new sovereigns would be "What, hang on, you mean we get a fair trial first? Wow!". It simply wouldn't occur to any of them that their new rulers might *not* use the death penalty in a sufficiently extreme case. Edmund's aversion to it is therefore far more personal, coming from his awareness of his own failure, coupled with Aslan's self-sacrifice.

Congratulations on 3 years! Even though I haven't been there for most of it, what I have been there for has been a magnificent and wonderful journey. Great job as always!

As for what I think should be mentioned, I'd like to see a discussion about Richard's health. I was rereading TSG part 1 the last few days, and I forget if it's chapter 1 or 2, but it's mentioned that he had malaria and the cure was killing him, but dementia and palsy aren't consistent with cinchonism as best as my google-fu shows, so I'm wondering what else is in the mix? (Or am I over-thinking things when I should be allowing suspension of disbelief to take over?)

Also I would love to see Asim or Major Al-Masri delivering news to Lucy, and being astounded by her Light.

I don't know if those work with the plot, but that's my two cents. Feel free to ignore or appropriate as desired.

I can't wait to read it!

Interesting point about Richard... I'd not really assumed that there was any particular relationship between his malaria and the cure that was killing him. He is weak and ill and as happens with folks who are beginning to fail, and as Mary points out, you don't see the failing day to day. It is only when you see them again after an absence that it becomes clear. That first scene is from Digory's point of view. He hasn't seen Richard for many months, he sees the weakness, the bad color, the overall ill appearance, and assumes it is a passing illness. Over the months it becomes clear, as these things tend to, that there is something else going on -- possibly a Dementia with Lewy Bodies -- a disease with which I have more than a passing familiarity. It looks like both Alzheimers and Parkinson's together and is progressive.

and as for Asim and Lucy.... soon ... very soon...

Thanks!

I cannot wait for Lucy and Asim to meet, I have a mental image of it that I can't wait to compare to how you see it. And thanks for the explanation! I have a tendency to think a little to deeply on things like that. I need to learn to turn my brain off sometimes :)

What's your mental image of the meeting between Lucy and Asim?!! I'm really curious....

I don't know that I can truly express it in words, but I think he'd see her, not as she is in England, but see beyond that to the Valiant Queen, bedecked in flowers. There's a sense of wonder-joy-peace-home, and it's a sort of cream-ish colour. The atmosphere kind of makes me think of laundry fresh out of the drier, that sort of warm feeling.

Where he less than he is, Asim would have gasped when Lucy answered the door. Major al-Masri knew that he'd find Lucy Pevensie to be as extraordinary as her siblings, but Asim bin Kalil (sp?) could not prepare himself for the light and the warmth that comes of those loved by God. She shone so bright that she could block the sun. And yet, while the sun can be blisteringly hot, Lucy was warm and comforting in her intensity.

The major saw a young girl, dressed in her brother's clothes, but Asim was given the sight of a noble Queen, her gown bedecked by chains of flowers. And yet, she also had danger coiled within. She was a Lioness, ready to protect her Pride.

"Lucy Pevensie?" he asked, though he knew that only she could shine so brightly with the light of God's Love.

"Yes, I am she," she responded, openly but with some concern, clearly worried for her brother and sister.

Asim hurried to assure her of their safety. (Here something about Rats being Magnificent creatures, because they are sneaky and hide well, and are not caught, as well as being quite brave. I'm not sure that I can write it in Asim's voice)

That is lovely! Thank you for sharing!! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your ideas. This all is so helpful and I've really missed this with the BB story.

Thank you! I had fun writing it. I'm glad it helps, I just really enjoy the community-ess of comment fic and scenes. And I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback when BB is posted. Definitely a lot from me at least!

And sorry to bother you, but how do you hyperlink things in an entry or post and have actual text showing instead of the url?

Will Mrs. Pevensie and Col. Walker-Smythe compare notes about Susan again? Or will Helen have tea with Polly Plummer as her letter at the end of AW Chapter 9 suggested? Whatever is or isn't present, I am breathless with anticipation (well, actually, I'm coughing a lot because I'm sick *again*, but there's anticipation in there somewhere).

I'm sorry to hear you've been sick! I hope you are feeling better! As for Mrs. P and George, I don't do that, but something else, from the very first chapter:

Finally, now, the meeting could take place that George had wanted since realizing that Susan Pevensie, working name Mrs. Susan Caspian, and her brother, Edmund Pevensie, had run a complex cipher for three months that fooled the espionage establishment in two countries. George had taken to personally calling it Operation Narnia.

He summoned to Baker Street the man who had cut off and tied up all the dangling bits of that security breach on this side of the Atlantic. Major al-Masri arrived so promptly from Bletchley Park George concluded the impatience to meet was mutual. George had read al-Masri’s file and seen the official, grainy, black and white photograph. al-Masri was shorter than he expected, very neat, and obviously not English. He would assume the man had checked on him as well.

al-Masri offered his hand. “Colonel Walker-Smythe, it is a pleasure to meet you.”

Ooh- I'm certainly looking forward to the continuation of this snippet! Yes, there must be a great deal of mutual curiosity, and it's fascinating to see TSG/AW meet up with TQSiT other than through Susan and Mrs. Pevensie.

I'm feeling somewhat better today- went back to the doctor and got more powerful antibiotics, which seem to be helping. Of course as soon as I finally cleared out all of my projects that were taking up too much time, I spend a whole month sick off-and-on and can't get back on track at all. It's been very frustrating.

Happy (late) anniversary; I hope there will be many, many more- I could read your stories forever, ruth. No lie there.

Oh look, you posted and I somehow missed the notification in my inbox. (Or maybe it didn't come? Hm). Anyway, a congrats on reaching 3 years of TSG!

"warriors' code which finds death in battle to be both honorable and a form of judgment. If you've got it coming to you, chances are, it's going to find you in the heat of battle, so the assumption goes."

Also, it gives the other some chance of defending himself - and if he _still_ is killed, it must be fate's judgement, mustn't it?

In two weeks' time, we start the trial of the man who killed so many young people in Norway last summer. Norway doesn't have capital punishment, and nobody is suggesting to reintroduce it.

But most of us do hope that he will be kept away from society for the rest of his life, e.g. in a psychiatric ward (or something along those lines) even after his sentence ends. (He may even be sentenced to some kind of ward, as he may be deemed insane and not responsible for his actions - something he protests against.)

I am sorry. We have, regrettably, a robust tradition of this sort of terrible crime and I am sorry for you and your country that this must be endured. Norway is such a beautifully open place.

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