rthstewart (
rthstewart) wrote2011-12-19 08:22 pm
Entry tags:
Just Like The Ones We Used To Know, Chapter 13
Chapter 13 is up. This wound up at over 20,000 words. After dithering, I decided to post it in two pieces. I will post Part 2 on Christmas Day as it is set on Christmas Day. With Yuletide and all the other challenges, I figured this would get buried, but I hit the send anyway because now it’s time to turn to the Big Bang.
Thanks to
adaese and
wellinghall for their enormous assistance on foodstuffs and UK Christmas celebrations then and now. Also, there was a lot of information through google-fu, including here, here, Christmas Under Fire, and the Peoples’ War
There was also this report about a teenage girl who was “French” kissed by a dashing Frenchmen in black silk pyjamas,
Thanks also to
lady_songsmith for Christmas information as well.
I found terrific information on the Christmas Eve Nine Lessons and Carols at King’s College, Cambridge in several places, including the College’s own site here and here and the very useful site here.
I once again returned to the work of the amazing
anastigmatfic and refer back to her Deny the Child in which Morgan coshes Aslan with a candlestick. I thought a lot about Edmund in this part, for all that we don’t have his point of view much. We cover a lot of ground with him as we get the promised discussion of what it was to be a traitor from DT, some understanding with his mother, his reaction to and meeting Jill, his comfort to Lucy and hopefully a sense that he is not angst-filled and is moving in the right direction. My thanks to
anastigmatfic,
h_dash_h, and Doctor Dolly who all shared thoughts on this in comments.
Some of the period touches on important cultural milestones, including the release of Casablanca in December 1942 to coincide with Operation Torch, the influx of over paid, over sexed, over fed jitterbugging American GIs, and the release of White Christmas.
Here's a great video about Jitterbugging and such,
"Having learned the steps you now forget them." At about 5:32 you get all the American soldiers dancing and you can just imagine Mrs. Pevensie's reaction.
And then we come to lonely Helen, John the philanderer, the next door neighbor widow, Beatrice Goodwin and her relationship with Helen, and the Mass Observation project at the University of Sussex. Archives released in 2005 document the first-ever sex survey in Briton -- it was conducted in 1949. The survey came a year after the American Kinsey Report. The Sussex researchers differed from the Americans in that they interviewed women as well as men. Their report, called “the little Kinsey” report, was based on interviews and reporting of over 2,000 men and women and was intended for publication in a national newspaper. The survey results were so shocking, they were not released for over 50 years. Findings included:
I’ve been aware of this survey and its findings for a long time and have been building up to this reveal since the middle of TQSiT. I’ll develop this a little bit more in the next chapter. It is not, however, a big part of the story. It is a nod to the historical realities of the time and what the war did to families, relationships, and women especially. In this story, fortunately, the Pevensie not-children have grown up in a place that is very loving and accepting, have grown up to be very accepting, loving, and tolerant adults, and recognize that judgment belongs to Aslan alone. Granted, it's probably different when you realize it is your own parents about whom one must be tolerant and accepting. But we'll get there.
Peace to you and my deepest thanks.
Thanks to
There was also this report about a teenage girl who was “French” kissed by a dashing Frenchmen in black silk pyjamas,
Thanks also to
I found terrific information on the Christmas Eve Nine Lessons and Carols at King’s College, Cambridge in several places, including the College’s own site here and here and the very useful site here.
I once again returned to the work of the amazing
Some of the period touches on important cultural milestones, including the release of Casablanca in December 1942 to coincide with Operation Torch, the influx of over paid, over sexed, over fed jitterbugging American GIs, and the release of White Christmas.
Here's a great video about Jitterbugging and such,
"Having learned the steps you now forget them." At about 5:32 you get all the American soldiers dancing and you can just imagine Mrs. Pevensie's reaction.
And then we come to lonely Helen, John the philanderer, the next door neighbor widow, Beatrice Goodwin and her relationship with Helen, and the Mass Observation project at the University of Sussex. Archives released in 2005 document the first-ever sex survey in Briton -- it was conducted in 1949. The survey came a year after the American Kinsey Report. The Sussex researchers differed from the Americans in that they interviewed women as well as men. Their report, called “the little Kinsey” report, was based on interviews and reporting of over 2,000 men and women and was intended for publication in a national newspaper. The survey results were so shocking, they were not released for over 50 years. Findings included:
- One in five men and women reported a same sex experience;
- One in four men admitted to having sex with prostitutes;
- One in five women admitted to an extra-marital affair;
- One in three children were conceived outside of marriage
I’ve been aware of this survey and its findings for a long time and have been building up to this reveal since the middle of TQSiT. I’ll develop this a little bit more in the next chapter. It is not, however, a big part of the story. It is a nod to the historical realities of the time and what the war did to families, relationships, and women especially. In this story, fortunately, the Pevensie not-children have grown up in a place that is very loving and accepting, have grown up to be very accepting, loving, and tolerant adults, and recognize that judgment belongs to Aslan alone. Granted, it's probably different when you realize it is your own parents about whom one must be tolerant and accepting. But we'll get there.
Peace to you and my deepest thanks.

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(Anonymous) 2011-12-20 02:34 am (UTC)(link)~LotL
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Thanks for writing!
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And speaking of the Choir of King's College, I had recently discovered (after our last discussion about it in a previous post) this video on Youtube of the Choir performing on Christmas Eve, 1940. The video footage shows the Choir performing and also scenes of London during the Blitz, so you'll see things like people taking shelter from the bombings in the Underground.
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Aha, found it! It was in amongst the holiday food traditions post:
http://youtu.be/aGK5EsGzKIg
Fascinating stuff, there!
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Anyway, this is a lovely pre-Christmas gift, thank you for posting!
How much does Mrs. P know and when?
Helen has been interesting. There are so many versions of the mother finding out or not finding out. It's hard to bring anything new to it. I think she's very sneaky about it. She rifles through Susan's purse, she writes to teachers, she interrogates Digory and Polly, and at some point, starts eavesdropping.
Her information is also fragmented and disjointed. They evacuated and come back but then how long are they home before they go off to school? Not long, surely. Then PC happens and they are at school after, not home. And then they are home but then she's off to America. I don't think she's had much opportunity to listen in and then her marriage falls apart.
Like Mary she knows more than she thinks she does but it is very fragmented and really given the trauma of war, wouldn't your first guess be that your children are engaged in some elaborate fantasy play?
Anyway, thanks again!
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And poor, poor Helen. She's handling it all very well, everything that she is absorbing from her observations (and spying!)
So glad you included the King's College choir! I've been researching it quite a bit for the sequel to the sequel, mainly from a throwaway line in Dichotomy. Damned throwaways and their demand for a plot! Needless to say, their recordings have been on constant replay on my holiday playlist.
And Edmund and Lucy's discussion at the end... I sympathize with Lucy. It's something that's been troubling me, and I wrote a long (too long and rambling, no doubt) LJ entry on it awhile back... the confusion of having two loves in one life, which is the theme of this same sequel of a sequel. It's a hard concept to wrap my head around, though it's been getting a bit better to deal with the more I write. Lucy and Edmund seem to be having a better time of it than I am!
And poor Edmund, what he heard at the wall of lilies. Makes me tear up just thinking of it. Glad he managed to get a laugh out of it!
Lovely chapter, thank you!
More about Edmund
Errr. teal deer.
The whole Jill thing was hmmm... I'm not sure. I'd say a little clumsy on my part. Except that given how Edmund HAS been, and given what he did do with Peter over the summer, it's not unreasonable for the siblings to make some assumptions and some of them are wrong. Some of it is a riff on the "all black people look alike to white people." There's no issue for Edmund and credit to him in that regard, but the siblings do make some mistakes.
I did also wonder at
After Chapter 9, when Lucy wrote how she wished she could talk to Edmund about the problems she see possibly, eventually arising with Jack, readers wanted that too. They were mad at Edmund for not being there for her. He was ready here, he's headed in the right direction and he's using the "not relevant" a lot less.
Thanks again, so much. It IS hard writing these things. And it does make you mad at Aslan, doesn't it?
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The business with Helen and John got me wondering about a few aspects. Initially, I had thought that Mr P wasn't part of the sort of spy lunacy happening in Washington, but instead some sort of academic weasel, it sounds like he's as much of a cad as Fleming, etc. A while ago, we had thought that Richard was an ass with not a lot of redeeming qualities. Now it feels like Mr P is that same sort of ass.
That then made me think about what Mr P would make of his children, and what they would make of him. Given that he dismissed Mrs P's concerns about the returned children, I can't iimagine that he'd see the girls as much more than mere females, to be dismissed to the kitchen. I'm also not sure whether the girls would like him too much either - I could see that he would irritate Susan, and infuriate Lucy. I will be really interested to see how these relationships redevelop when (if?) the family is back together.
Mr. P the philanderer
I do have a number of male philanderers, come to think of it, with Richard, Tebbitt, and Mr. Pevensie. I'm not sure that that is atypical of the time, though. In my head canon, Tom Clark is loyal to a fault (that's a whole other backstory I won't get into -- oh gawd, more OC backstory). But then I have male OCs who are good and loyal partners, too.
I've not decided on whether to give Mr. and Mrs. P a reconciliation. Still thinking about that one.
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Mrs. P. has been interesting. It's hard to not put myself in her shoes. If my children were that weird, I'd not rest until I got to the bottom of it and yes, if I had to badger teachers, friends, and mentors, and snoop, I would. I also feel tremendous sympathy for the single parenting, holding a job, scrounging for daily existence, and living in a war zone. I do a lot of single parenting myself and I have the benefit of calling Domino's. The stress would be unbelievable. Yes the British were cheerful and proud and all that but really it was HARD. I am cutting her a lot of slack given the circumstances.
Thank you again
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Particularly loved how awkward Eustace sounds in his letter, wittering on about Woburn Abbey when he should be saying something about Jill. And Lucy's spelling finally seems to be improving - a bit.
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As for the 9 AM wake up call, oh goodness, YES, that was an evening of hand wringing. I looked up sunrise times for that time of year during that year and saw it was 8 AM-ish and thought, what am I going to do? I figured they would not go outside in the middle of the night in a London suburb and light a fire. I was more worried about spotters and bombs than the wake up time. I didn't say precisely when they did it in Cambridge, either, but figured there it was also less of a concern, given the location and the time -- August 42. So, I sort of slid it in and let the reader come up with some way it might work, because there really isn't a good solution. Aslan's paws, deus ex leo. It's dawn-ish and that is, unfortunately, as close as I can get.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-20 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)And as I said on ff.net, I love seeing Christmas in 1942. Your love of details and accuracy makes it very real :-)
And the video about Jitterbug is GREAT xDD
I can't wait until Christmas ! Have a good holiday, and Merry Christmas to you :-)
Marie
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I also deeply love seeing inside Edmund's head as much as we do - the conversation about the White Witch, and then about Morgan.
And the bit about the picture, and MrsP listening is awesome.
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As always, thank you.
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(Also, please don't worry about replying to me both here and on FFN like last time - I'm sure you'll read them both and reply only to what's needed.)
Jack, Jill and Morgan
As for Morgan vs. Jill, I actually don't have much of a mental image of Morgan or Jill. Based on how the others act, there is room to conclude that there are physical similarities in looks and build (though not temperament). I wrote above that I did this for a couple of reasons. I'm poking at the all black people look the same to white people. His siblings are wrong, period, and their fretting over Edmund is making them see a bit less clearly than they normally would. Second, I'm turning around the idea that Edmund would be/is still angsty over his dead wife and am writing Edmund as being, or becoming, wiser and more balanced about it. Third, I wanted to have Edmund reach out to Jill, because he does recognize what it is like for an outsider to come in. And last, I needed an segue to the conversations he has with Lucy and with Mrs. P and this was convenient. So... it's a tool to get other things across and not an issue on its own.
Thanks again so much!
Re: Jack, Jill and Morgan
Re: Jack, Jill and Morgan
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-20 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)I love Mrs. P in this chapter, but my favorite part is the second Candlestick bashing. I laughed so loudly, I woke my dog up. I do have to agree that Mr. P will come home to a home he doesn't recognize. His family is happy and productive, and compared to their peers, coping fabulously.
And I look forward to the day he has to apologize to Mrs. P about all her bad decision-making!
Doctor Dolly
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"I am sorry, Harold, but I really cannot talk now. There is too much I have to tell you and I really have to go find a candlestick. I need one right now, so I have to go. Love you! Ta!"
"Candlestick? Wait? What? Morgan? Morgan???!!"
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I think one new (or at least unusual) thing you bring to the "the mother finds out" sub-plot is the slow and steady piecing together that she's doing. There's no stunning, shocking revelation. She's not blind to it, or completely wrong about everything. She's just carefully working through things and clearly knows her children very well even though she's missing huge chunks. And she's gradually re-forging relationships with them rather than confronting them in some melodramatic scene. I look forward to more of this!
I love Lucy and Edmund finally talking about Aidan and Morgan. And yes, Morgan steals the show. But Lucy pointing out that when it comes to people in Spare Oom who seem like significant others in Narnia, he's been plenty irrational himself was great. And I didn't see it coming any more than he did.
Eustace and Edmund's discussion on the train was a high point for me as well, perfectly illustrating what I like about Eustace so much- he'll occasionally just nail you with some deep insight, almost by accident. And probably at the most inappropriate time, without really thinking about it.
Mr. Pevensie takes an undeniable turn towards the villain role in this chapter, where the problems have been left vague before. I do hope we eventually see some of his perspective, whether you follow through on this path or have him find or at least seek some sort of redemption. However I love Mrs. P's thoughts comparing her relationship with her husband to that with her neighbor. It should give her an interesting balance in perspective should some of her children's wilder experiences ever come to light :-)
Looking forward to the Christmas Day chapter!
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John is the villain of the piece. Yet, I remember in working on TQSiT with one of the creepy Tarkheenas and comparing it to what The Irregulars said about the men. Sleeping around was just something that men of power did (and some of the women, too). It's part of the culture. Adding that to what is happening to those who are staying behind in England, it's really quite a mess. I very much see John as one of those distant, autocratic, family man providers, emotionally distant, works very hard, puts his wife on pedestal that she really doesn't want or like, is lousy at communication other than "What's for dinner?" and "Where's my drink?" and he's become impotent in his marriage. He left 1939 and his family has become a total stranger to him.
At this moment I'm toying with the scene between Susan and her mother and trying to decide if Susan sees something of the connection with Mrs. Goodwin. I wrote it that she does, edited to remove the knowledge, and am now thinking it needs to go back in. If I don't do it here, it's really not going to come up again for a long time.
I had one reviewer who didn't like the part with Eustace and Edmund because she thought I was making Edmund too angst filled about the Witch, given that I've so consciously written him as NOT a tortured soul. I'll need to go back and look at it. It's a balance. Susan brought it up to him way back in Part 1, Lions' Business, and he gets angry at her. In this scene, he's irritable anyway, he's not at his best and Eustace, as you say, has this way of saying these unbelievably insightful things but his timing just SUCKS. Edmund may at peace with his betrayal, but nor is it for casual discussion. I wonder too if Edmund secretly enjoys some of it -- I Was Redeemed (he says as much to Peter at the end of TQSiT how taking the role of speaking for the wrongdoer at one time showcased just how just he is). I don't know that he really wants to share his particular sphere with Eustace.
Anyway, thank you so much for reading, as always.
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I do also love that Helen thinks of Ambassador Halifax as "His Lordship the Penguin"! And that she's realized that Susan will be off somewhere soon.
John's culture shock upon return would make an interesting story if you end up exploring it (I recall mention of a scene with John and Edmund in a pub?) Especially if Helen has reconciled her feelings about her current situation to the point where she really has very little use for him at all. Right now I get the impression that she at least thinks that things *should* be better between them.
Susan's reaction and backstory on Under Cover
I agree completely. An initial draft had Susan doing just that. She saw what was going on and her first reaction is, I can use this to get what I want. I can blackmail my mother! And I balked at that.... I had a hard time making Susan that cold and I thought readers would really rebel at it. I need to keep in mind that she is still The Gentle as well, though in this incarnation, she is, as I've said before, gentle in the way that a tide is -- it's fine so long as you go along with it and if you try to swim against it, you will drown.
I currently have her coming to some nice conclusions where it's Susan's own inability to believe her mother capable of such things. She sees the signs but doesn't interpret them correctly because she really can't think that of her mother. I think that makes sense, but I've now changed the scene about 5 times.
And should you or anyone else be reading this (I'm waiting for my family to all get back from a big sporting event and I cooked yesterday, so nothing to do today except memorize my OT reading for tonight and do dishes, again), query: let's say theoretically that Susan and Edmund decide Jill needs to get that set of picks from Under Cover so she can let herself into Eustace's dorm. Would that establishment where the picks are acquired be a super seedy, bombed out place where Edmund goes all street urchin -- because if that's the case, what would Susan go as? Or would it be some high end sort of place in which case Susan trots out Mrs. Caspian, but then what does Edmund do? The answer to this unexpected decision is holding up the posting of the next chapter as I try to figure out how to do this in a way that isn't obviously just a knock off of the chapter that wasn't from TQSiT... And should I post it as part of this? Or as a standalone or as a new chapter to Under Cover?? hmmmm....
Re: Susan's reaction and backstory on Under Cover
Oh I like this very much. It continues the blind spot the children have about their mother, that mirrors how they feel she can't comprehend them. Also, Susan's underestimated her mother before. In some ways they are still young, and this shows up in how they fail to see things they think of as Narnian Here.
And yes, as manipulative as Susan is, I like the idea that she's not *that* cynical yet. Perhaps during a dark time after 1949 in the cold war period, but not yet.
As for the lockpicks, good question. Although the fellow Susan got hers from was plenty dodgy, the context was not. Who figures out how to get the lock picks in the first place? If it's a high end place, then there needs to have been an opportunity for Susan to make that connection- such a place would no doubt be very discreet. If it's a seedy place that a street urchin could find, Edmund may have been able to find it more quickly. Where to put the scene? I suspect that when you finish it you'll have a feel for whether it fits in AW, UC or as an alternate take somewhere.
Re: Susan's reaction and backstory on Under Cover
Susan handed him an identity card. It read, Jean Louise Ellis, Leeds.
“You are Mademoiselle Ellis?”
She shook her head. “Madame.”
“You are married to Mister Ellis of West Yorkshire?”
“Oui! Où est…” and she thrust the slip of paper at him with the address and pointed at it.
“You want me to take you there?”
Madame Ellis nodded. “Oui, s'il vous plait!”
Rotten luck that Susan got to do all the play acting, but he could do the part of the local guide for the confused French lady looking to buy a set of lockpicks from a respected locksmith (same establishment since 1865!) who did a bit of dodgy work for spies on the side.