Chapter 11, Squamates

[rthstewart]

Chapter 11, Squamates, is up.

After much angst, I decided to split the chapter, putting off, yet again, conversations about camels and same sex bonded pairs of black swans, albatrosses, and giraffes. There will also be a flashback with Lucy, Aidan, Morgan and Edmund which answers the question Doctor Dolly raised after He loves not man the less, but nature more -- if Peter and Susan did the great bonding with Narnia, what did Lucy and Edmund do? The answer is that they performed Narnian bonding ceremonies with their spouses. Also, we (finally) get a normal, non-AU conversation with Mary and Peter -- the first since Part 1. But that is all for later.

For this chapter....

Thanks to lady_songsmith, clio, and snacky for the nudges and to many previous reviewers who asked some of the things I now wrestle with here.

I spent way too much time looking at historical agricultural production in Oxfordshire and locations of RAF bases and Aeorodromes. We finally get into the ballroom and return to the plaster blocks and Eustace finally hears about Chinese dragons. I found the story of the four dragons who became the four rivers of China in several places, including here. It is purportedly taken from Dragon Tales: A Collection of Chinese Stories. Beijing: Chinese Literature Press, 1988

I first found the discussion of the same sex giraffe pairs and rams who prefer other rams in the very comprehensive wiki entry, Homosexual behavior in animals and I'll be going back to that in a longer discussion in the next chapter. Other references, however, include the Merck Veterinary Manual which I understand recommends dealing with the rams that will not tup ewes as a matter of herd management and husbandry. N. Bailey and M. Zuk, Same-sex sexual behavior and evolution, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 24, Issue 8, 439-446, 10 June 2009 was also useful, here

Some time ago, readers expressed an interest in seeing something of Mary and Richard happy, some explanation for why their relationship was what it was. So, I've done that here, writing what I hope is an older man and husband's point of view on his wife, love, lust, and bitter regret.

In an original text with Christian symbolism (I hesitate to call it allegory, as Lewis eschewed the term) and a fandom that so emphasizes it, I know that, nevertheless, there are plenty of readers (including some or many who come here) who do not adhere to Christianity and who do not and never have read the Chronicles for their Christian symbology. Some time ago, a reader asked me if Mary was an atheist. I said no, and of course, Richard is not an atheist as a point of his character was to show the co-existence of science and faith. The question though has stayed with me. As I moved into Part 3, I have begun to play with an idea with Digory -- that as a religious scholar he is, nevertheless, not religious. He is, however, a deist and shows how seeing God in everything means he sees God everywhere.  He does not subscribe to the view that God must be worshiped one particular way. He (and Lucy) are very iconoclastic, but still they are not atheists.

With Eustace, I go there, posing the questions a lot of fans have with this series. If we assume Aslan is a Jesus-stand-in, he is, at best, a pretty poor deity, so this argument goes. He imperils children, is inconsistent, arbitrary and even cruel, and, for instance, unlike Jesus who did tell his disciples that he would be resurrected (they just didn't understand the elliptical message), Lucy and Susan didn't have that information and so for a night, they weep over Aslan's dead body thinking he is really and truly gone forever. Nice.

Eustace, both in the canon character that we know, and as developed here, is in a position to express those viewpoints about where Aslan can be seen as falling short in the love your children, God is omnipotent, department. Eustace voices the criticism of Aslan the other Friends of Narnia don't voice. The counter is Jill who, as is developing here, has a very charismatic view of God and has been raised to see God as the deliverer, shepherd, and protector of oppressed people.  Jill is very comfortable with the age old question, why does God let bad things happen to good people?  She comes from slaves and still believes.

And if there was any doubt, Peter is no theologian or philosopher.

So, the next chapter is mostly finished and the one after that is the Christmas chapter, Just Like The Ones We Used To Know. I've been trying to get AW to the point that I can move seamlessly to my Big Bang, but they may not happen.

Anyway, thanks so much.  I would not have pushed Eustace in this direction were it not for the thoughtful commentary I've read over the last 2+ years so my thanks to those who have posed these questions.

Comments

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

<333333

I do so appreciate that discussion of differing beliefs, differing ways of believing, and the problem of theodicy.

I suspect I am finding myself closer and closer to the Digory and Lucy view of things, though it's difficult to talk about as I still don't really know where I'm at. I think I've horrified/concerned my poor teacher this quarter, as I started out being the only one of 8 students who was 'on her side' to the extent that it was sides in discussions of science vs religion, and by the end of the quarter was veering away from debates about how theologians have talked about God's benevolence to ask why God has to be good, lol, completely derailing her points about the tradition in order to combat the tradition.

Anyhow, I loved Eustace here, and I loved Jill's understanding of how he needs to work it out for himself - I would still, if it fits in anywhere, love to see a little bit of discussion between Eustace and Lucy on the matter.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

I thought a lot about posts you've made over the years regarding Susan and how, if the assumption is that she doubts, for a time, that is a good thing, for faith is something that can grow and shift and there is room for those with different varieties of it.

To the point though of Eustace and Lucy, there will be a point, in the next chapter, where the two of them on Christmas Day are sitting as far as they can from the church and still be inside the church, and they may not even be inside it. What do you think they say to one another that has not already been said? Mrs. Pevensie has already received one letter from Lucy's Headmistress reporting her daughter's rude behavior to the school preacher.

In my head, I do see their conflicts as different. Eustace is asking the questions fandom often does, which is the position that Aslan is a pretty poor deity. He's never going to deny Aslan, but he's disappointed him, not wholly trusting of Aslan, and really doesn't buy that he's all good. Nor does Eustace bother with "finding Aslan by a different name," I think. I had thought I was taking Eustace toward being an atheist here, and I'm not sure that I can really do that in this 'verse and be fair to that position.

As for Lucy, in contrast, her faith in Aslan is absolute and her problems are with religious authority. To paraphrase Gandhi, she has no problem with Christ, it's Christians she can't abide. She's a bit like the early martyrs. So when Eustace says, I'm pissed at Aslan, why didn't he save Rilian, why does he send children to do this awful work, etc. what does Lucy say in response? In defense of Aslan? Or is there no answer, as many comments to this entry said?

In an exchange with Heartwould, I recalled something from Paladin of Souls by Bujold in which a god (the Bastard) tells a deeply flawed and angry saint that the gods crave great souls, not perfect ones, and I wonder if some of the answer is there -- though the whole, what does not kill us makes us strong isn't satisfying either. One of my reviewers in this chapter said she thought Lucy would say that Aslan works through others because they grow as individual people - becoming kinder, braver, more generous and warm-hearted people than they otherwise would be.

So, if you have some idea of what Lucy would say to Eustace on Christmas Day, I would love to hear it!

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

I dunno if I have any actual ideas, but I do certainly have thoughts, and you're welcome to any of them if they end up being at all inspirational. To address the story directly, first, I don't know if anything actually needs to be said that hasn't already, certainly. I mostly just think it would be intriguing to have Lucy and Eustace interact on this account. And I don't know - would Lucy defend Aslan? My sense is that she would also understand what Jill does, that this is between Eustace and Aslan, and that they can certainly discuss their experiences, physical and transcendent, and their different issues and beliefs, but I don't think Lucy would here feel any need to defend Aslan. Maybe it's a bit of a cop out, but I think she would have an answer, she simply wouldn't give it. Idk if any of this makes sense. I guess my point is - Lucy would have a defense of Aslan, but she would also understand that that comes from her own personal experience with Aslan, and doesn't necessarily apply to Eustace's own problems.

Going broader:

I do really love the application of the Gandhi quote to Lucy's position. Mostly because that is a lot of my own issue right now. I find plenty of the sacred and the good in the Christian tradition (and really, the Abrahamic tradition, I guess - what I'm shying away from here is the word 'tradition' because that implies a lot of the codification which I disagree with) of understanding the divine, but I find myself more and more at odds with the Church as an institution.

I like your elucidation of Eustace's disappointment with/distrust of Aslan. You can believe the existence of a divine being without necessarily finding them worthy of/needing worship, or just without seeing them as all good. Which takes me to places different than Eustace's story, I'm pretty sure, because it takes me to a place of I don't even know, evolutionary quasi-theism or something wacky, whereas I like what you are projecting with Eustace, a theism in Narnia and an atheism on Earth. I like the implication that he can find Aslan and Narnia here, too, but that doesn't necessarily mean finding a Divine Being here.

And I LOVE that idea from Paladin of Souls. Bujold's gods are ones I particularly like - they do, in a sense, work for good, but it's a good focused on balance, not on making humans' lives easy or just. While the testing sort of god yeah, isn't necessarily satisfying, I think it does in a sense work well with some of your vision (or, Peter's and Willa's and others' vision) of Aslan being there, doing what he can, but expecting others to keep on without him, to do their part too.

Another thing for me in reference to Narnian faith is the physical presence of Aslan, at least for the main characters. It's hard to talk about in-story belief and doubt when, in story, Aslan IS. The nature of his divinity can be debated, doubted, critiqued, but he's there, for sure. Whereas we the readers have a somewhat broader - or just different - range to wrestle with, from differing beliefs within theistic belief all the way to different ways of seeing transcendence in the world but maybe outside of religious traditions, and out to total atheism. Which, again, is an allure of having Eustace, particularly as you write him - and his sort of Narnian-theism, Earth-atheism.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense or is even helpful to your writing, but it's an interesting convo, anyway.

[rthstewart.livejournal.com]

Your points about Aslan and Eustace's relationship to him and to a higher being here are very valid. To turn a well trod argument on its head, Spare Oom God is just a theory and to Eustace the scientist, the proofs aren't very convincing given how screwed up it all is. He believes in Aslan because he has seen Aslan and witnessed his power.

And just by the by, being at odds with the Church as Institution makes perfect sense, see, e.g., liturgical changes.

Someone just pointed out in teh comments to Chapter 12 that she's really not sure about my Lucy characterization -- she likes it, but I think it's reading OOC for her. The Lucy as written here is, first and foremost, valiant and fearless. I see her as very much a soldier for Aslan, saint and crusader, and just fierce and open and without guile. She's terrifying. But I really like your observation that she will see Eustace as having to experience Aslan for himself. This ties in a bit with Digory's own Franciscan views of a very personal relationship with God. When you have that personal relationship and when, in Digory's case, you see the creator in everything, it's really hard to think of the creator in any way limited or in need of being channeled through institutions.

OK tired now and bed. Thanks so much for the commentary. it's VERY helpful.

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

OKay, first a sort of pre-script: You know how we joked about this convo being studying for my final? Your io9 link about atheists exposing their children to religious traditions I actually did use :D

I find a lot of possibility for exploration in the fact that Aslan is such a directly-experienced God. Certainly within-Narnia there's room for characters to doubt Aslan, and especially to doubt his goodness or power, etc, but canonically, Aslan exists. That's part of why I love what you do with the application of Narnia to Earth, the 'it's all relevant' thing, because it's definitely a very different sort of application of faith. Faith in Aslan, in Narnia, is not necessarily a question of existence but one of dependence; transferring that back to England requires the Pevensies etc to do all you've been showing with finding Narnia in England, finding what Aslan wants them to do. And, as with Eustace, it's once back in England that the question can arise of, is Aslan there. Suddenly it has to be a faith without concrete experience, or at least only with the experience of the past, in Narnia. *shrug* I don't know how coherent that is, but I like pondering it.

As for Lucy, I guess I can see where someone might read your Lucy as OOC? She's certainly not quite the always merry, always-faith-in-Aslan child type of the books, but even as I typed that I was saying to myself- but she is. It's just that you write, you know, a more adult version of that, and to me that's an extension of character, not a new characterization or an out-of-character thing. Your Lucy has all the 'childish' aspects and also has that fierceness, the valiance, and she's got that connection to and firm faith in Aslan. Maybe it's just that I happen to love what you do with her, but I find your Lucy to make perfect sense.