rthstewart | Chapter 11, Squamates

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Chapter 11, Squamates

Chapter 11, Squamates, is up.

After much angst, I decided to split the chapter, putting off, yet again, conversations about camels and same sex bonded pairs of black swans, albatrosses, and giraffes. There will also be a flashback with Lucy, Aidan, Morgan and Edmund which answers the question Doctor Dolly raised after He loves not man the less, but nature more -- if Peter and Susan did the great bonding with Narnia, what did Lucy and Edmund do? The answer is that they performed Narnian bonding ceremonies with their spouses. Also, we (finally) get a normal, non-AU conversation with Mary and Peter -- the first since Part 1. But that is all for later.

For this chapter....

Thanks to

lady_songsmith, clio, and

snacky for the nudges and to many previous reviewers who asked some of the things I now wrestle with here.

I spent way too much time looking at historical agricultural production in Oxfordshire and locations of RAF bases and Aeorodromes. We finally get into the ballroom and return to the plaster blocks and Eustace finally hears about Chinese dragons. I found the story of the four dragons who became the four rivers of China in several places, including here. It is purportedly taken from Dragon Tales: A Collection of Chinese Stories. Beijing: Chinese Literature Press, 1988

I first found the discussion of the same sex giraffe pairs and rams who prefer other rams in the very comprehensive wiki entry, Homosexual behavior in animals and I'll be going back to that in a longer discussion in the next chapter. Other references, however, include the Merck Veterinary Manual which I understand recommends dealing with the rams that will not tup ewes as a matter of herd management and husbandry. N. Bailey and M. Zuk, Same-sex sexual behavior and evolution, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 24, Issue 8, 439-446, 10 June 2009 was also useful, here

Some time ago, readers expressed an interest in seeing something of Mary and Richard happy, some explanation for why their relationship was what it was. So, I've done that here, writing what I hope is an older man and husband's point of view on his wife, love, lust, and bitter regret.

In an original text with Christian symbolism (I hesitate to call it allegory, as Lewis eschewed the term) and a fandom that so emphasizes it, I know that, nevertheless, there are plenty of readers (including some or many who come here) who do not adhere to Christianity and who do not and never have read the Chronicles for their Christian symbology. Some time ago, a reader asked me if Mary was an atheist. I said no, and of course, Richard is not an atheist as a point of his character was to show the co-existence of science and faith. The question though has stayed with me. As I moved into Part 3, I have begun to play with an idea with Digory -- that as a religious scholar he is, nevertheless, not religious. He is, however, a deist and shows how seeing God in everything means he sees God everywhere. He does not subscribe to the view that God must be worshiped one particular way. He (and Lucy) are very iconoclastic, but still they are not atheists.

With Eustace, I go there, posing the questions a lot of fans have with this series. If we assume Aslan is a Jesus-stand-in, he is, at best, a pretty poor deity, so this argument goes. He imperils children, is inconsistent, arbitrary and even cruel, and, for instance, unlike Jesus who did tell his disciples that he would be resurrected (they just didn't understand the elliptical message), Lucy and Susan didn't have that information and so for a night, they weep over Aslan's dead body thinking he is really and truly gone forever. Nice.

Eustace, both in the canon character that we know, and as developed here, is in a position to express those viewpoints about where Aslan can be seen as falling short in the love your children, God is omnipotent, department. Eustace voices the criticism of Aslan the other Friends of Narnia don't voice. The counter is Jill who, as is developing here, has a very charismatic view of God and has been raised to see God as the deliverer, shepherd, and protector of oppressed people. Jill is very comfortable with the age old question, why does God let bad things happen to good people? She comes from slaves and still believes.

And if there was any doubt, Peter is no theologian or philosopher.

So, the next chapter is mostly finished and the one after that is the Christmas chapter, Just Like The Ones We Used To Know. I've been trying to get AW to the point that I can move seamlessly to my Big Bang, but they may not happen.

Anyway, thanks so much. I would not have pushed Eustace in this direction were it not for the thoughtful commentary I've read over the last 2+ years so my thanks to those who have posed these questions.

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Dear rthstewart Please forgive me if I am using the wrong method of communicating with you, but I have no real idea of how LiveJournal works, so decided to use this comments form. About 2 months ago I stumbled on your wonderful writing. I had a vague notion about the existence of "Fan Fiction" but had no real comprehension of its extent. I discovered fanfiction.net while looking for something else and since I have loved the Narnia books since childhood, starting reading the Narnia postings. I have to admit I found most of it boring, some dreadful and then I found your books. (By now, I think they class as novels.) In my opinion, they are brilliant. (Or as my 13 year old niece would say "epic", which I gather means "better than "awesome.") I think they are the type of books Lewis would have written if he had chosen to write adult books for adults. The thoughtful and caring way you have taken the main characters to adulthood in Narnia and dealt with their lives back in England, makes fascinating reading. I love your new characters too--the guards and Morgan in Narnia, Asim, Mary and Richard in England. Plus your sense of humour! As Mary would say and Peter would agree, "Magnificent!" Discovering your writing has happened at a significant time for me. The week I found it, I was packing for a prolonged stay with my parents. My Dad was about to have a hip replacement and my Mum was dying from cancer. Your writing helped me face this time with a measure of strength and serenity. I won't say it renewed my Faith since I don't have any particular faith or religious belief, but it definitely helped. The timing was certainly serendipitous. I might almost believe that the Lion's paw nudged me into finding it...! In any case, thank you very much for sharing your work with others. This post is probably way too long already, but I have a few questions, if you will indulge me. 1. You give a description of the personal banners of the other three Monarchs, but not that of the High King (unless I missed it.) Does Peter just use the Lion banner? Or the Lion quartered with the sword and/or something else? 2. What is Lucy's chivalric title? As a knight of Narnia is she Lady Lucy? Or does Narnia follow the British tradition and use "Dame" for female knights? 3. In "Maenad of the Maquis" you mention that Peter was "Flying Officer" Pevensie, which I assume means he is in the RAF. But in "Apostolic Way" you have him trying to join the Paras. Does this plan not work out? 4. Are you by any chance a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books? I will explain this question if the answer is "yes." Thanks for letting me ramble on at length. I check every day for new postings (no pressure, really!)and will continue to reread favourite sections. ClaireI

Welcome, Claire! This is a delight and thank you for sharing. This method of communication is fine -- I respect the anonymity that folks prefer. Some have ended up creating Livejournal accounts or gmail or hotmail accounts with fake names to make it easier to communicate. I know that sounds silly, but really, folks have done that. You do have my sympathies regarding the hardships of your family. Becoming caregiver to our parents is one of those signs of middle age -- been there, done that, got the t shirt. And, as reflected in the chapter of AW that went up today, I am of an age where I am very cognizant of both elder care and the burden that falls usually on women to nurse a husband. We take succor wherever it comes and I'm glad you found some distraction in the books and the community we have going here.

I'll answer more later, but two short ones:

1) Peter's rank in Maenad of the Maquis vs. where I'm going in AW. Maenad is not fully compliant with AW. Maenad was written for a challenge in response to a prompt and I jiggered Peter and Susan's ages, the rank, and the service to make the story work; the characterization is a little more angry and melancholy too. Peter reflects in Chapter 1 of AW that he cannot see himself in a bomber killing remotely and that's what I'm running with. Riding in gliders and jumping out of airplanes, yes, that is more in keeping with the Peter of this characterization.

2)Are you by any chance a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books? I will explain this question if the answer is "yes." Oh gawd yes. I fear that my Edmund characterization of By Royal Decree is heavily influenced by Miles though without the hyperactivity. And the staff of Vorkosigan House, Ma Kosti, Roic, the Armsmen, Pym... oh my gosh PYM, yes, they all very much are reflected in the Royal Guards and the Cair Paravel staff who in turn are reflected in members of Russell House.

Thanks very much for your answers.

So you are a Miles Vorkosigan fan. That explains the sudden vision I had while reading "By Royal Decree" of Miles suddenly showing up in Narnia during the Golden Age. Can't you just see him telling stories of the Dendarii to the JustKing? And Edmund getting the idea of Dendarii Buccaneers on the Eastern Sea? Of course if it was before Ekaterin, Miles would fall head over heels for the Gentle Queen. She is tall, dark, serene, extremely intelligent and very beautiful. And if Armsman Roic was bemused by Taura, how would he react to Dryads? Also interesting comparisons of the task of ruling an Empire with up to nine Auditors with Imperial powers to help out versus a kingdom with four co-equal sovereigns.

ClaireI

And now for the other two, which comes with a rambling admission. I had given no thought at all to orders and banners and titles. I wrote BRD and included that long riff on titles and such because I wanted to set up Edmund's line: "Ass and Brute tend to be popular with my former lovers; any current one, well, that's no one's business but our own, and I don't much care, so long as it isn't 'brother,' 'father,' or 'Peter.'" I introduced Morgan just so he could say that line. To set up the line, I needed Jalur to mention his titles and why calling Edmund "Sir" wasn't sufficient -- which I just realized is something that could be interesting when Jill does that to Edmund the first time....
Anyways, I very arbitrarily put Jalur in Edmund's order not even realizing there were two separate orders. Min pointed out, well gosh, h ow did Jalur end up in Edmund's order? What's the story there? And why does Peter have such young guards? And, The Palace Guard was the result. So, the ideas of knightings and orders was completely accidental and I've been making it up as a go along ever since. (This is where reader input has been SO invaluable).

There was some fic that had Lucy as Knight and I liked it and so did it with no thought at all to what her title would be. I did ask someone at one point, what would a female title be? Would it be Sir? Or something else? I've not resolved it. She may just be Queen. What has since become important was that Susan was not knighted. Which again is something that just sort of happened during TQSiT and a reader said, wait, what about Susan? I decided that this would be a dividing line -- which begins to show up in AW in her conversations with Peter.

As for Lucy's banners, I'd originally thought to leave a quadrant blank on Susan's to denote that she was not a Knight, but since moved away from t hat. I had no problem filling up things for Edmund, Susan, and Lucy -- they all have STUFF. (The black bird for Edmund actually originates with the black bird of Thomas Becket.) Peter. errrr. I have no idea. The Sword and the Lion, possibly just divided in 2. Or in thirds with a crown signifying his status as High King.

As for that Vorkosigan xover, don't you know the rules? You suggest it, you write it! MWHAAAA!

2. Dame, certainly Dame. „Dame” was an equivalent of a title “Knight” in times were knights were real knights, in particular when orders where not only high class medals, which is what interests us. Lady is an equivalent of a lord, which refers to feudal superiority.
> Or does Narnia follow the British tradition and use "Dame" for female knights?
It’s not the point of British or not British tradition. We’re using English language and in that language words Dame and Lady have specific meanings (despite British being slightly inconsistent in the matter of titles associated with certain awards nowadays). A question which should be ask is why Narnians use English language (except for the fact that Chronicles... where written by British author for British children).
Explanation which I created for my own use is that Narnia is a world “in which there was no Tower of Bable”. In other words: creatures living there (including all humans) are not even aware of possibility of existing different verbal communication systems, but they all use what could be described as a sort of universal langue, as it would be carried out in acts of speech. Sounds a bit like a contradiction in terms, I know. But to describe fantastic situation one has to use some unorthodox methods. Otherwise, how would you explain that Narnians and Calormens, centaurs and lions use the same language? Person from the outside would subconsciously perceive langue as a language which is most natural for him/her, ie. his/her mother tongue.
Therefore, when we quote utterances made in Narnia, when we talk about its titles etc. we in fact translate or rather: use a representation of certain part of langue in our language or sometimes idiolect.
In such a case asking “which word would Narnians use for...” is pointless. What matters is what we want to describe and which word English language (as the language of Ruth’s fanfiction) uses for that.
That’s at least how I see it. But I would gladly read some other explanations for a phenomenon of communication in Narnia.
Best,
Krystyna

Hello krystyna! Nice to hear from you again. Narnian fandom can be divided long one axis -- those who are interested in language and those who are not. Some writers I adore have been VERY interested in precisely the issue that you raise -- the lack of a Tower of Babel and the lack of linguistic shift -- there's also the apparent lack of any technological developments. this isn't one that I focus energy on, but writers like

anastigmatfic are very interested in linguistic issues and... oh gosh. there's someone else who is predictably also a Tolkien scholar.

As for the titles, I don't really know. I would guess Lucy is either a Dame or maybe just Lucy, Knight of the Order of the Lion?

If she would be a Knight, she would also be a King of Narnia, if we want to uphold basic coherence.
Krystyna

The Queen of England is also a Knight of the Order of the Garter. I've never heard anyone refer to her as "Sir" or "Lady", though - under most circumstances, where one person holds several titles, the highest ranking title is used. See http://www.royal.gov.uk/monarchUK/honours/Orderofthegarter/orderofthegarter.aspx for more, including (something I didn't know) they included women in the middle ages, albeit only as associate members. And apparently for this order at least it's Lady, not Dame.

where one person holds several titles, the highest ranking title is used. Thank you!!

Hi - this is

wellinghall -

adaese's husband.

where one person holds several titles, the highest ranking title is used

This is, as

adaese says, generally true. One exception is that the highest relevant rank is true. So the fact that Prince Charles is Duke of Rothesay is generally ignored in favour of his higher rank of Duke of Cornwall - except when he's in Scotland, when he becomes Duke of Rothesay.

Exactly. In this particular case - there is sometimes a reason for which you want to refer to Peter as a Knight of the Order of the Lion rather than as High King. And just as well there may be a reason to refer to Lucy as a member of the same order.
>adaese
That's one of the reasons for which I wrote "despite British being slightly inconsistent in the matter of titles associated with certain awards nowadays". Female members of same of the orders are called Dame, some others - Lady. Queen's case, as the Sovereign of the Order, is also different. It's all the result of several historical processes which were happening in different times, during several centuries. But Lucy was made a Queen of Narnia and member of the Order in (from the historian's point of view) the same time, so in both cases the same rule should be applied.
I don't recall a woman from the High Middle Ages which would be made a full member of an order equal to a Knight. Hence I use an analogy with royal titles. In both cases certain "profession" is supposed to be hold only by men and titles which goes with this professions practicly by deffinition refer to men. As a result when by exception a woman gets certain position there is a problem how to call her. You can observe two ways of solving that problem: by giving that woman a title which is normally given to a wife of a person holding such a position (like in England and Great Britain, where you have reigning queens and dames or - because of processes mentioned above - ladies of orders), or by giving a woman title which usually indicates that a person who bears it is a man. Narnia clearly follows the first pattern.
Krystyna

Thanks, Krytyna! The breadth of your knowledge and that you do this so well in a foreign language always awes me. Bringing it back to Lucy and fic, I can imagine Queen Lucy the Valiant saying, "I am a Knight of the Order of the Lion and you may call me [Sir, Lady, Dame, Queen]" and everyone else saying, "Yes, your majesty."

Hello

wellinghall and thank you for stopping by! It is thus I blather all over about places I have never been and subjects I have never studied and manage to (so far) get some or a lot of it mostly right with assistance along the way from those who are wise and generous.

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Chapter 11, Squamates

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