rthstewart | Chapter 11, Squamates

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Chapter 11, Squamates

Chapter 11, Squamates, is up.

After much angst, I decided to split the chapter, putting off, yet again, conversations about camels and same sex bonded pairs of black swans, albatrosses, and giraffes. There will also be a flashback with Lucy, Aidan, Morgan and Edmund which answers the question Doctor Dolly raised after He loves not man the less, but nature more -- if Peter and Susan did the great bonding with Narnia, what did Lucy and Edmund do? The answer is that they performed Narnian bonding ceremonies with their spouses. Also, we (finally) get a normal, non-AU conversation with Mary and Peter -- the first since Part 1. But that is all for later.

For this chapter....

Thanks to

lady_songsmith, clio, and

snacky for the nudges and to many previous reviewers who asked some of the things I now wrestle with here.

I spent way too much time looking at historical agricultural production in Oxfordshire and locations of RAF bases and Aeorodromes. We finally get into the ballroom and return to the plaster blocks and Eustace finally hears about Chinese dragons. I found the story of the four dragons who became the four rivers of China in several places, including here. It is purportedly taken from Dragon Tales: A Collection of Chinese Stories. Beijing: Chinese Literature Press, 1988

I first found the discussion of the same sex giraffe pairs and rams who prefer other rams in the very comprehensive wiki entry, Homosexual behavior in animals and I'll be going back to that in a longer discussion in the next chapter. Other references, however, include the Merck Veterinary Manual which I understand recommends dealing with the rams that will not tup ewes as a matter of herd management and husbandry. N. Bailey and M. Zuk, Same-sex sexual behavior and evolution, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 24, Issue 8, 439-446, 10 June 2009 was also useful, here

Some time ago, readers expressed an interest in seeing something of Mary and Richard happy, some explanation for why their relationship was what it was. So, I've done that here, writing what I hope is an older man and husband's point of view on his wife, love, lust, and bitter regret.

In an original text with Christian symbolism (I hesitate to call it allegory, as Lewis eschewed the term) and a fandom that so emphasizes it, I know that, nevertheless, there are plenty of readers (including some or many who come here) who do not adhere to Christianity and who do not and never have read the Chronicles for their Christian symbology. Some time ago, a reader asked me if Mary was an atheist. I said no, and of course, Richard is not an atheist as a point of his character was to show the co-existence of science and faith. The question though has stayed with me. As I moved into Part 3, I have begun to play with an idea with Digory -- that as a religious scholar he is, nevertheless, not religious. He is, however, a deist and shows how seeing God in everything means he sees God everywhere. He does not subscribe to the view that God must be worshiped one particular way. He (and Lucy) are very iconoclastic, but still they are not atheists.

With Eustace, I go there, posing the questions a lot of fans have with this series. If we assume Aslan is a Jesus-stand-in, he is, at best, a pretty poor deity, so this argument goes. He imperils children, is inconsistent, arbitrary and even cruel, and, for instance, unlike Jesus who did tell his disciples that he would be resurrected (they just didn't understand the elliptical message), Lucy and Susan didn't have that information and so for a night, they weep over Aslan's dead body thinking he is really and truly gone forever. Nice.

Eustace, both in the canon character that we know, and as developed here, is in a position to express those viewpoints about where Aslan can be seen as falling short in the love your children, God is omnipotent, department. Eustace voices the criticism of Aslan the other Friends of Narnia don't voice. The counter is Jill who, as is developing here, has a very charismatic view of God and has been raised to see God as the deliverer, shepherd, and protector of oppressed people. Jill is very comfortable with the age old question, why does God let bad things happen to good people? She comes from slaves and still believes.

And if there was any doubt, Peter is no theologian or philosopher.

So, the next chapter is mostly finished and the one after that is the Christmas chapter, Just Like The Ones We Used To Know. I've been trying to get AW to the point that I can move seamlessly to my Big Bang, but they may not happen.

Anyway, thanks so much. I would not have pushed Eustace in this direction were it not for the thoughtful commentary I've read over the last 2+ years so my thanks to those who have posed these questions.

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I actually really love the contrast between Jill and Eustace, and how you show so many differing beliefs through the various characters - and most especially how you don't belittle any of those beliefs. Jill is not an idiot or raging fanatic, Eustace is not filled with hate, Lucy and Digory aren't wishy-washy ... there are no stereotypes in your Friends, and I so, so love that.

Yay another chapter!

Eustace's questions have always been mine so I sympathise, but also with Peter since I have converted. I've had many conversations like that on both sides and have yet to come to a conclusion that satisfies me properly. I felt you captured those feelings very well.

Also, much love for the chapter title. Heh squamates. It's such a cool word!

Yea for more Apostolic Way! I particularly like Eustace's questioning. It makes sense for him.

Thanks for writing!

Dear rthstewart Please forgive me if I am using the wrong method of communicating with you, but I have no real idea of how LiveJournal works, so decided to use this comments form. About 2 months ago I stumbled on your wonderful writing. I had a vague notion about the existence of "Fan Fiction" but had no real comprehension of its extent. I discovered fanfiction.net while looking for something else and since I have loved the Narnia books since childhood, starting reading the Narnia postings. I have to admit I found most of it boring, some dreadful and then I found your books. (By now, I think they class as novels.) In my opinion, they are brilliant. (Or as my 13 year old niece would say "epic", which I gather means "better than "awesome.") I think they are the type of books Lewis would have written if he had chosen to write adult books for adults. The thoughtful and caring way you have taken the main characters to adulthood in Narnia and dealt with their lives back in England, makes fascinating reading. I love your new characters too--the guards and Morgan in Narnia, Asim, Mary and Richard in England. Plus your sense of humour! As Mary would say and Peter would agree, "Magnificent!" Discovering your writing has happened at a significant time for me. The week I found it, I was packing for a prolonged stay with my parents. My Dad was about to have a hip replacement and my Mum was dying from cancer. Your writing helped me face this time with a measure of strength and serenity. I won't say it renewed my Faith since I don't have any particular faith or religious belief, but it definitely helped. The timing was certainly serendipitous. I might almost believe that the Lion's paw nudged me into finding it...! In any case, thank you very much for sharing your work with others. This post is probably way too long already, but I have a few questions, if you will indulge me. 1. You give a description of the personal banners of the other three Monarchs, but not that of the High King (unless I missed it.) Does Peter just use the Lion banner? Or the Lion quartered with the sword and/or something else? 2. What is Lucy's chivalric title? As a knight of Narnia is she Lady Lucy? Or does Narnia follow the British tradition and use "Dame" for female knights? 3. In "Maenad of the Maquis" you mention that Peter was "Flying Officer" Pevensie, which I assume means he is in the RAF. But in "Apostolic Way" you have him trying to join the Paras. Does this plan not work out? 4. Are you by any chance a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books? I will explain this question if the answer is "yes." Thanks for letting me ramble on at length. I check every day for new postings (no pressure, really!)and will continue to reread favourite sections. ClaireI

I did enjoy this: all the different character interactions, Mary feeling left out, Jill curtseying to Peter, Peter being insufferable about animals. And yes, Mary and Richard being a married couple with a long history together.

Great stuff, looking forward to the next bit!

Also, this just showed up on my RSS reader, and I thought you might appreciate it: adorable giraffes.

Welcome, Claire! This is a delight and thank you for sharing. This method of communication is fine -- I respect the anonymity that folks prefer. Some have ended up creating Livejournal accounts or gmail or hotmail accounts with fake names to make it easier to communicate. I know that sounds silly, but really, folks have done that. You do have my sympathies regarding the hardships of your family. Becoming caregiver to our parents is one of those signs of middle age -- been there, done that, got the t shirt. And, as reflected in the chapter of AW that went up today, I am of an age where I am very cognizant of both elder care and the burden that falls usually on women to nurse a husband. We take succor wherever it comes and I'm glad you found some distraction in the books and the community we have going here.

I'll answer more later, but two short ones:

1) Peter's rank in Maenad of the Maquis vs. where I'm going in AW. Maenad is not fully compliant with AW. Maenad was written for a challenge in response to a prompt and I jiggered Peter and Susan's ages, the rank, and the service to make the story work; the characterization is a little more angry and melancholy too. Peter reflects in Chapter 1 of AW that he cannot see himself in a bomber killing remotely and that's what I'm running with. Riding in gliders and jumping out of airplanes, yes, that is more in keeping with the Peter of this characterization.

2)Are you by any chance a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books? I will explain this question if the answer is "yes." Oh gawd yes. I fear that my Edmund characterization of By Royal Decree is heavily influenced by Miles though without the hyperactivity. And the staff of Vorkosigan House, Ma Kosti, Roic, the Armsmen, Pym... oh my gosh PYM, yes, they all very much are reflected in the Royal Guards and the Cair Paravel staff who in turn are reflected in members of Russell House.

Thanks very much for your answers.

So you are a Miles Vorkosigan fan. That explains the sudden vision I had while reading "By Royal Decree" of Miles suddenly showing up in Narnia during the Golden Age. Can't you just see him telling stories of the Dendarii to the JustKing? And Edmund getting the idea of Dendarii Buccaneers on the Eastern Sea? Of course if it was before Ekaterin, Miles would fall head over heels for the Gentle Queen. She is tall, dark, serene, extremely intelligent and very beautiful. And if Armsman Roic was bemused by Taura, how would he react to Dryads? Also interesting comparisons of the task of ruling an Empire with up to nine Auditors with Imperial powers to help out versus a kingdom with four co-equal sovereigns.

ClaireI

Fantastic chapter as always! I got the notice on my phone and alas, spent most of the day outdoor and so could not sit down and read it until everyone came and gone and things have settle back to normal. That being said, I also debated whether or not to just print this out and read on the plane Tuesday but I just couldn't wait.

Anyway, it seems this chapter reminded more of the very earlier chapters of TSG. With all the people and varied discussions about Narnia, Spare Oom and the Good Beasts, it did feel like we were all drawn back into the very beginning, with Richard and Mary's arrival at Digory's office.

Wonderful chapter, and I love the fact you've squeezed in the gay giraffes :-)

Seriously though, you've tackled some real biggies here. Elder care, sexuality (in several forms), faith and the nature of God. I think you've done a great job, and it always delights me that you're prepared to go there rather than glossing over the too-hard stuff.

Waiting for part 2 with great anticipation.

Thank you! (and good luck with the mice!) The more I thought about this as true allegory, the more uncomfortable I became with it, for I really could not see the flawed deity of Aslan as Jesus, Son of God. It really just all fell apart. I wrote to Clio recently that I have no rear view mirror -- I am not a reflective person at all and am really very theologically and philosophically stunted. I don't THINK big questions in my life. So, trying to wrestle with this coherently and respectfully has been an interesting challenge. I really felt though that Jill nails it with a belief tested is a stronger belief. Eustace is angry, and I can easily see him taking this anger and looking at the war around him and deciding that a benevolent, omnipotent God simply cannot exist in a place where 6 million Jews are murdered.

Two things of import in the last day. Yesterday, I had to proclaim from Ezekiel at Mass -- and how God will gather his scattered flock and separate the rams from the goats. Oh yes, She's got a sense of humor alright and is laughing her head off at me. Then, this morning, an article that a local diocese (not mine) will no longer permit girls as altar servers. These are individual decisions, so YEAH for autonomy, I guess, but it horrified me and always leaves me with... well, you can imagine.

Bringing it back to the happy place of fic, I can imagine what poor Lucy would go through in a typical 1940s church environment. She's simply not going to be able to sit back and be philosophical about it, or ignore it, or shrug it off as, "well, they are just stupid." It is going to enrage her.

Thank you! As I mentioned to Eloise above, I don't tend to wrestle with these things myself and I credit my time in the fandom over the last 2 years for the sum and substance of the conversation. I want to present it respectfully and without condescension or condemnation. An element of the fandom tends to assume that the only people who have read the Chronicles are Christian but its appeal is so much broader.

and yes, Squamates is a terrific word -- I spent some time trying to figure out if dinosaurs were squamates wandering through cladograms (they aren't) and wondered where dragons would fall. (Yes, I wonder more about Linnaean taxonomy for dragons than theology and I'm not a professional in either area). I also liked the word for its play on "mates" as the story is taking a turn toward bonding/marriage/family again.

Edited 2011-11-20 14:14 (UTC)

Thank you!! I so appreciate it!

And now for the other two, which comes with a rambling admission. I had given no thought at all to orders and banners and titles. I wrote BRD and included that long riff on titles and such because I wanted to set up Edmund's line: "Ass and Brute tend to be popular with my former lovers; any current one, well, that's no one's business but our own, and I don't much care, so long as it isn't 'brother,' 'father,' or 'Peter.'" I introduced Morgan just so he could say that line. To set up the line, I needed Jalur to mention his titles and why calling Edmund "Sir" wasn't sufficient -- which I just realized is something that could be interesting when Jill does that to Edmund the first time....
Anyways, I very arbitrarily put Jalur in Edmund's order not even realizing there were two separate orders. Min pointed out, well gosh, h ow did Jalur end up in Edmund's order? What's the story there? And why does Peter have such young guards? And, The Palace Guard was the result. So, the ideas of knightings and orders was completely accidental and I've been making it up as a go along ever since. (This is where reader input has been SO invaluable).

There was some fic that had Lucy as Knight and I liked it and so did it with no thought at all to what her title would be. I did ask someone at one point, what would a female title be? Would it be Sir? Or something else? I've not resolved it. She may just be Queen. What has since become important was that Susan was not knighted. Which again is something that just sort of happened during TQSiT and a reader said, wait, what about Susan? I decided that this would be a dividing line -- which begins to show up in AW in her conversations with Peter.

As for Lucy's banners, I'd originally thought to leave a quadrant blank on Susan's to denote that she was not a Knight, but since moved away from t hat. I had no problem filling up things for Edmund, Susan, and Lucy -- they all have STUFF. (The black bird for Edmund actually originates with the black bird of Thomas Becket.) Peter. errrr. I have no idea. The Sword and the Lion, possibly just divided in 2. Or in thirds with a crown signifying his status as High King.

As for that Vorkosigan xover, don't you know the rules? You suggest it, you write it! MWHAAAA!

Thank you so much! Glad you liked it and I really appreciate you reading! And Giraffes are SO ADORABLE. But really, so awkward!

Thanks! I hope it did not feel like a re-tread! I just got a review that pointed out some of those things -- like the curtseying. And it's funny but the next chapter is very much like that too with the flashback and Mary specifically recalling the first tea in Digory's office. I'm actually pushing into fractured and unconventional families again in the Christmas chapter -- and still trying to figure out how to write Edmund and Jill. Also, wondering about the scene where they decide to give the picture to Asim... whether I need to write that. I don't think I do. And, whether I should recast that scene from Russell House and include it in the chapter. I may do that as a lot of people may not have read it and I can revise it in light of where AW has ended up and probably soften Richard and Mary a bit.

Errr. I dunno.

Have a wonderful time on your trip! Reports! We want them!

edited because OMG Teal Dear. The same sex bonding in animals is really a very recent thing. Despite the jokes about "gay giraffes" the evolutionary biologists are very, very careful in their terminology. The Laysan albatross work is fascinating because it was 2009 before the researcher realized she was observing female pairs and there had been this HUGE effort for decades to explain away the significance of 2 egg nests when female albatrosses can only lay one egg at a time. There was NEVER even the theory put forth that there were really two females on the nest.

It's in there, actually, not for the sexuality itself -- I've pretty much been there, done that. This is a commentary on non-traditional families -- which will be really clear when we get to the Christmas chapter. I'm still trying to figure out some things there, including Mrs. Pevensie and the young widow/mother next door, Mrs. Goodwin and what her children realize and how they react to it.

As for the other, yeah, no one's much commented on that, but then issues of elder and spousal care are more relevant at my age than those who are younger. It's always interesting to see how people jump over certain things in their commentary and reviews. You can see the mental skipping, which makes perfect sense as, at best, it's really distant for so many and for those for whom it is more relevant, it's uncomfortable and sad. I know that Richard's sexual reflections and might-have-beens might seem uncomfortable -- I've not done anything so blunt in that regard -- even Maenad did not have that same quality and while Edmund came close in BRD, that was always with a humorous cast. This was, I thought, closer to how an older man longs for his partner, remembers what once was, but the body begins to fail and and knows he's powerless to stop it.

Oh gawd, I just realized that I've blathered about the sadness coming for two OCs. HELP ME. WHAT AM I DOING??? WRITING WHOLE SCENES WITH NO CANON CHARACTERS???!!! Errr, right, carrying on.

You asked about Digory and his WW1 history - I don't really have a clear idea -- some wonderful fic writers have written of him being de-mobbed and the after effects. I am assuming that Digory was surrounded by death and got very accustomed to dealing with wounded soldiers. I've had a scene in my head from the very beginning, where Peter is ministering to a no longer communicative Richard and a nurse observing that Peter has obviously had some experience in dealing with the ill and infirm -- because of course in Narnia he would have helped with his wounded soldiers.

OK, time to get out of PJs and to the grocery store.

Edited 2011-11-20 15:35 (UTC)

I already flailed at you over on FF.Net, but I'll just say again - I really, really enjoyed the conversation between Eustace, Jill and Peter :)))))

It did not feel like a re-tread at all! It was more like, 'oh, this reminds me of when TSG first started, way back before we realize how much madness this would lead to'. So it was all very good, with fond memories and all. :-)

I don't think you need to write giving the picture to Asim. It may help if you give it a line or two in passing in a future chapter, so people know to connect it to the other story if they hadn't read it yet.

While you might not need to write the seen about giving the picture to Asim, I at least would be very interested in seeing how that came about. I have lots of other thoughts about this and will either get them together in a longer review or break them up to keep them with the original thought.

Doctor Dolly

I read this chapter with great interest and will attempt to bring together some very disparate thoughts in one post and be coherent about it.

1. Elder care - Been there, done that. No need to comment on it. Funniest moment with my grandfather in the Altzheimer's ward was the other lady who happily disrobed and was waiting on him. The saddest moment with my grandfather in the Altzheimer's unit was that the staff were so busy laughing about it upstairs in the regular unit, that Grandmother heard the whole thing. Granddad was never present in the room, by the way.

2. I've moved from a very liberal part of the country (New York) where it is normal to see women involved in church services to a part of the country (Texas) where this is heretical. You will never go back into that particular box once you've been on the other side. Instead, your mission starts happening in other spaces because there are people who need you and the Lion's Paw knows how to put two and two together.

3. I once had this same conversation about suffering on earth with a preacher (who by the way told me this was his favorite rabbit hole to go through. Thwack!) There are perhaps an element or two that we talked about that isn't here - one is that God allows sin/suffering because he knows he can save us from it. The other is that he uses ones who have not seen, but yet believe to rebuke the ones who have seen and revolted.

So I said that to say this - Eustace may not identify with a religious denomination or sect, but that may not necessarily make him atheist and I have an incredibly difficult time to see him as a fallen friend of Narnia. He has seen Aslan, he understands both his cousin's and his own redemption and he follows his will in Narnia and in England, even if he doesn't have knowledge of the Bible or of other religious texts of the Church of England.

doctor dolly

Re Digory/Richard/Peter, that all sounds completely logical to me. And yes, there can be incredibly difficult issues around ageing and infirmity and illness, and I do utterly get where you're coming from. I think perhaps that they have become, if not less relevant, then certainly more remote in modern times than in earlier eras when families didn't necessarily go very far from one another, and the generations tended to be very much jumbled together under one roof. In that situation, it's going to be very much more in-your-face and normal, I guess.

And now I really am going to have to chase down that albatross paper you've cited

Yes, this whole comment.

Doctor Dolly:
I haven't by the way forgotten about your Oxfam idea. I'm not yet sure how or anything, but the idea is now there, and I'm thinking about it, so thank you. (I feel at this point like humming, "I get by with a little help from my [imaginary] friends")

Yes, elder care is sad and hilarious both -- and so often falls to the wife and the daughters, though not always, of course.
You will never go back into that particular box once you've been on the other side. Instead, your mission starts happening in other spaces because there are people who need you and the Lion's Paw knows how to put two and two together.
This is beautifully eloquent. Thank you.

One is that God allows sin/suffering because he knows he can save us from it. The other is that he uses ones who have not seen, but yet believe to rebuke the ones who have seen and revolted.
The later part of that is I suppose in the Christian Bible, the story of doubting Thomas, Gospel of John, blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe. The first part, I can see that being something Jill would say and I can also see what Eustace's counter-argument would be. I further recognize my intellectual inability to mount much of an argument on either side. I'm with Peter and if someone raises these things, I wave a flag of surrender, hand them over to my lay theologian spouse, and reach for the tequila. Someone once said, in the middle of Part 1 that I had the habit of setting up sticky issues, presenting different views on them, and then not answering the questions.
And I agree with you completely that Eustace would never not be a friend of Narnia for his redemption is too important. But having experienced first hand that power, would he wonder why it wasn't used for more than just one spoiled, nasty boy? He believes in Aslan and will always work to do the Lion's work, but maybe his anger at Aslan manifests itself in non-belief here?

I'm thinking about this because a part of the Christmas chapter will involve the trip to church -- I need to figure out what COE services were like -- did they have vigil Christmas Eve services or did everyone go in the morning? The bits of reading I've done have made it sound as if there are lots of evening services -- because the churches weren't lit and the black out blinds were up. And when the family does go, what are Eustace and Lucy up to?

What I can't find now are the scholarly articles from the 1970s referring to the same sex bonding and copulating as repugnant and aberrant. A New York Times overview that discusses the albatrosses, who will be making an appearance in the next chapter, is here. The Wiki article is a very good basic primer and is well-cited, though it gets a lot of its information from the book Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemihl which I have refrained from buying. If that book is wrong, the Wiki article is wrong, which is why I was glad to find the other citations and more recent articles.

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Chapter 11, Squamates

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