rthstewart (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rthstewart) wrote2009-10-16 02:35 pm
rthstewart) wrote2009-10-16 02:35 pm
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TQSiT Chapter 6, Tools of the Trade
Well, it's up, FINALLY!! Tools of the Trade, 9,700 words, and a full two months since the last update. Ugh. I promise I won't start anything new. Really. Well, except maybe this retelling of Horse and His Boy. and inserting the Trickster into the pantheon of Calormene gods.
So fun links
The Rider-Waite Tarot Deck from which Agnes reads
The Astrologer that British Intelligence really regretted hiring
A little bit about Saint Agnes, patron saint of young girls, virgins and rape victims
A little bit about the Trickster, Anansi, and Aunt Nancy
Insofar as De Wohl is concerned, this is an example of the sort of time compression that I use in the story. He was actually most active in the U.S. through December 1941. I'm bumping up their use of him about 6 months cause how can you possible leave out astrologers and Rat and Crow rumormongering in Narnia story? Right?
In fact, the beginning of this chapter harkens back to Chapter of TSG, Part 1, in which Ed and Su are starting to figure some of this out.
Susan shrugged. “It is possible. Also, at first I was very confused by the prospect that England might be spying on her allies, until I considered that we did precisely the same thing. Archenland was our friend and the Lone Islands were part of our kingdom. Yet, we had agents among our allies, as well as among our enemies so that they might direct policy in our favor at need. I would assume Churchill does the same.
There was another possibility as well. “Rats and Crows were also very useful for spreading rumors we wished to circulate in foreign courts. I could see some applicability of a strategy like that in America, as well.
They had learned just how effective that rumormongering had been from Aravis. The runaway Tarkheena had overheard the Tisroc repeat back, nearly verbatim, the rumor they had planted in his Court. The Narnian monarchs, young though they were, had killed the old enchantress and her never-ending winter with aid of strong magic and were supported by a demon of hideous aspect and irresistible maleficence who appeared in the shape of a Lion. A widely circulated report that any attack upon Narnia was truly a dark and doubtful enterprise would, he and Susan had hoped, give their would-be enemies pause. The ploy had, very nearly, succeeded completely. Edmund had later used the Rats and Crows to assure that those who would war with Narnia knew of Rabadash’s transformation. There were fates worse than that of an ass and, it was rumored, the wrath and sorcery of the free Northern land would surely be unleashed upon Her enemies in even more terrible ways if Narnia’s peace was disturbed again.
I wish I could say that I knew I was going to do what I just did here when I wrote that way back 6 months ago or whever I posted it. Nope.
As for the lengthy note at the end, yes, I'd like to know what you think. These things are an uncomfortable part of US history; to paint it as normal or ignore it would seem dishonest. Yet, maybe fan fic shouldn't go there at all. My solution was to show things that today would be denounced as stereotypical, yet align them with the positive connotation of Narnia. I do not align Narnia with the frivolity and class-based Washington society in which Susan is also moving.
So, thoughts? Fire away!
So fun links
The Rider-Waite Tarot Deck from which Agnes reads
The Astrologer that British Intelligence really regretted hiring
A little bit about Saint Agnes, patron saint of young girls, virgins and rape victims
A little bit about the Trickster, Anansi, and Aunt Nancy
Insofar as De Wohl is concerned, this is an example of the sort of time compression that I use in the story. He was actually most active in the U.S. through December 1941. I'm bumping up their use of him about 6 months cause how can you possible leave out astrologers and Rat and Crow rumormongering in Narnia story? Right?
In fact, the beginning of this chapter harkens back to Chapter of TSG, Part 1, in which Ed and Su are starting to figure some of this out.
Susan shrugged. “It is possible. Also, at first I was very confused by the prospect that England might be spying on her allies, until I considered that we did precisely the same thing. Archenland was our friend and the Lone Islands were part of our kingdom. Yet, we had agents among our allies, as well as among our enemies so that they might direct policy in our favor at need. I would assume Churchill does the same.
There was another possibility as well. “Rats and Crows were also very useful for spreading rumors we wished to circulate in foreign courts. I could see some applicability of a strategy like that in America, as well.
They had learned just how effective that rumormongering had been from Aravis. The runaway Tarkheena had overheard the Tisroc repeat back, nearly verbatim, the rumor they had planted in his Court. The Narnian monarchs, young though they were, had killed the old enchantress and her never-ending winter with aid of strong magic and were supported by a demon of hideous aspect and irresistible maleficence who appeared in the shape of a Lion. A widely circulated report that any attack upon Narnia was truly a dark and doubtful enterprise would, he and Susan had hoped, give their would-be enemies pause. The ploy had, very nearly, succeeded completely. Edmund had later used the Rats and Crows to assure that those who would war with Narnia knew of Rabadash’s transformation. There were fates worse than that of an ass and, it was rumored, the wrath and sorcery of the free Northern land would surely be unleashed upon Her enemies in even more terrible ways if Narnia’s peace was disturbed again.
I wish I could say that I knew I was going to do what I just did here when I wrote that way back 6 months ago or whever I posted it. Nope.
As for the lengthy note at the end, yes, I'd like to know what you think. These things are an uncomfortable part of US history; to paint it as normal or ignore it would seem dishonest. Yet, maybe fan fic shouldn't go there at all. My solution was to show things that today would be denounced as stereotypical, yet align them with the positive connotation of Narnia. I do not align Narnia with the frivolity and class-based Washington society in which Susan is also moving.
So, thoughts? Fire away!
no subject
no subject
While you may have been uncomfortable writing the word "Negro" in the story, I must admit it surprised me only for a brief second and then I moved on from it. Thinking of setting (time and place) of the story, I think it was fine and I wasn't bothered by it. I don't think it's something that should be glossed over and you were using it to portray how things were when Susan was in America.
Not related to what I said above, but this was a question that came to mind as I read the conversation between the three siblings about diplomacy and food... Obviously, Edmund and now Peter are learning more about what Susan is doing in America. And with Lucy jumping in here, I'm sure she knows a bit if not all of what Edmund knows. But does Eustace have any idea of what his cousin is doing in America, or is he not privy to any of this and Edmund deeming this as 'not relevant' to his cousin?
Oh! And I meant to send this link along to you... thought it may be useful for reference. British Pathe has a whole collection of archival news footage dating back to a very long time. When I first discovered the site, I found some fascinating footage of Churchill when he visited the States. There was an interesting one of him as he visited the top of the Empire State Building, and when I saw it, I was thinking this would be fit in quite nicely with the story!
no subject
Thank you for the comments about the tone and setting. At this point, it's becoming habit -- rrrth hems and haws about something, does it anyway and then holds her breath and waits for the howls of outrage.
Lucy knows "some" of what Susan has been up to -- how much, I'm not sure, certainly not the details. Something like being forced (again) to taste pig intestines at the home of an Embassy-based person is the sort of thing that might have even made it into a letter from Susan to Lucy. Eustace knows nothing of the spy part of it -- unless he overheard Edmund and Lucy speaking of it. However, there is a scene coming up in the next chapter or 2 that cracks that open a bit, something where Edmund makes a point of involving them all becaused as Narnians, they should know of it. So, we'll get there when we get there.
Thanks for the link. I'll have to look at that. Something that is hard to determine is to what extent some of this information was publicly available at the time. For instance, there were these meetings between some of FDR's brain trust and Molotov of the Soviet Union about opening the second front and FDR promising deployments. You can now read his letters and cables back to Stalin about it. But how much of this was public? Same thing with these 300 Sherman tanks on their way to North Africa. I would assume that a convoy of 300 tanks leaving NY would not be publicized. In fact the first shipment was hit by a UBoat so they had to order another 300 tanks. I can't really address that, so I don't, or refer to that part of the story in Narnian terms. The exception to this, in a reasonably accessible way is that there is good documentation of what the intelligence community knew when regarding the mass murder of European Jews. THAT I can deal with.
Thanks so much!
no subject
I think for the most part, while you hem and haw, we just enjoy all of it and go along for the ride. What Edmund involves all of them in sounds intriguing. I don't have an inkling at all of what it could possibly be about. Could it be a Rat and Crow scheme or something else entirely?
It IS hard to figure out what exactly the public knew at the time. The only thing for certain is to take a look at old newspapers and see what the headlines were.
By the way, I just watched newsreel footage of your Penguin Ambassador as he spoke to the Americans. Lord Halifax seems to be a very dull man judging from his voice, or it could just be me.
no subject
Oh! And saw you posted a chapter! I need to get over there and look at it, which I will do in the next day or so!
no subject
And just a little side note: when I got to the bit about Edmund reading Lady Chatterly's Lover, I couldn't help but snicker. The book is quite ridiculous, and it is even more so when the more frivolous portions are read aloud in overly dramatic voices in a public setting.
no subject
Yes, LCL is ridiculous. It is really stupid. I actually have a little bit sitting in the hard drive where Edmund and Peter discuss it's stupidly and Peter tells Ed he should send the book on to Aunt Polly who, in his judgment, "has led an active and very full life" and might, possibly "sway as the Dryads do."
I should not read your fic at 3am
(Anonymous) 2009-10-17 05:16 am (UTC)(link)Autumnia and ilysia basically said all I think about your social question in the notes.
I somehow remembered Carlomene poetry painted as dull in Horse and His Boy. Hmmm I suppose it could be called sensual with all the similes and metaphors.
Oh and completely off topic, but in your last review answer to me you mentioned you could see Jalur being in Aslan's Country worrying that when Edmund appears he would like Merle more than him. Now that story I would like to read...but I shouldn't distract you :P.
Ruan Chun Xian
Re: I should not read your fic at 3am
Yep, there's the Aslan's Country part of this whole vision, which I will get to. Promise.
my review's horridity and more
Anyway, just to throw out there - MLK and other Civil Rights Movement leaders used the term 'Negro' themselves - is it a case of future generations/lasting collective guilt that we worry so much about such terms and possible insults? When do things cease to be cultural and begin to be degrading? This is all very interesting to me.
Re: my review's horridity and more
no subject
My best understanding of Terms for Minorities 101 is thus: if it is a new and relatively neutral term the minority has picked, use it. (People of Color, GLBTQ, etc.) If it is an old and culturally loaded term that has since become an epithet (negro, fag, dyke) the term may be used between members of the minority but likely will be seen as offensive when used by those not a part of it. Terms made to describe the minority by those not of it (colored) are generally avoided, as that smacks of Them Not Us divisiveness.
Some older terms still survive - the 'colored' in NAACP, the use of 'Negro' in the United Negro College Fund - but those are situations where the terms were in everyday use when the organizations were put together. Go with the newer stuff.
& re: Meto's question about cultural terms vs. degradation: terms begin to degrade when they're used as an insult. A hundred years ago, "nigger" was an ordinary part of speech. Then it got hijacked for a number of slurs - "nigger-rigged" comes to mind, as a synonym for jury-rigged. These days, if a white person casually says "nigger," they might as well have a giant flashing neon sign floating over their heads that says WHACKJOB RACIST.
(If the speaker is elderly this may not apply; in those situations it could just be the terms they grew up using, and not any overt sign of racism. Though, generally, old folks are as capable as the rest of us at swapping out parts of speech. It all depends.)
I'm sure there are real twenty-five-cent words for these situations, but my vocabulary fails here. Handwave, flail, I hope you get what I'm saying.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-10-17 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)For mine, I think I tend to agree with what others have written here. Yes, the story is set through the 1940s via Narnia, and is written and (hopefully) read through that lens - as much as any of us who weren't around in the 40s can. As I understand it, you've used the most inoffensive terms possible, and you've obviously written with sympathy, so I'm good with it.
I also have a certain amount of issues with putting a fully modern viewpoint over the top of another era anyway. Like it or not, we can't deny that certain things have happened in our history (Holocaust, anyone?). To just gloss over the past, to try and almost hide it with modern sensibilities seems to me to be heading in that direction, and when we don't remember past history, then we're going to repeat it.
Just my 20 cents...
Cheers
Min
no subject
Issues of race and the results of the American 2008 election were a part of what brought me to the this story, as I thought about how societies can so profoundly change over time and what might those agents of change be. What I have been concerned with is first relying upon stereotypes, and second that if one didn't have to go there, why should I? But, it has occurred to me that what the Witch and Miraz did to the native Narnians have some WW2 parallels, speaking of the Holocaust and denying history, so that's the logical progression here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-10-23 10:10 am (UTC)(link)Min
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-10-21 04:56 pm (UTC)(link)You posted that you would like a response to your usage of the word "Negro" in the latest chapter of your story. And while I cannot offer anything historically-based or anything of the like, I would still like to offer my opinion, if that's all right.
First off, I am not American, so I cannot say that there was a very big effect on me when you used it in the story. I did notice it though, but only when you brought it up in your author's note did I really stop to think about its implications.
Because I can't relate profusely to this, I'll try and explain my point of view from my own personal experience. :) For starters, I am a Filipino, so you may or may not know our history. I'll get to the more important part of it though, as I don't want to bore you. :P We were a free people until the Spanish colonized us for over 300 years. Suddenly, their rules and their opinion on what is "civilized" and "right" and all that jazz was imposed on my ancestors. We weren't even called "Filipinos" back then, as being part of the Filipino population was only reserved for Spaniards who lived in the Philippines. Instead, we were called "indios", which was back then very derogatory as it implied that we were... let's just say dirty, uncivilized, couldn't take care of ourselves, inferior to the Spaniards, and etc.
To cut to the chase, I guess I can relate how I feel about the word "Negro" being used here to how the word "Indio" can be hurtful if we Filipinos were called that again. The term is now only used and mentioned in history books, as far as I know. But anyhows, I see your use of the word as appropriate for the time period you're writing about. It's a sensitive issue, yes (although I can't say I know for sure how sensitive the issue still is over there), but trying to sugar-coat it with another word wouldn't be useful. It, for me, would be equivalent to not stating in our Filipino history books that we were indeed called indios back then, if that makes sense.
Also, personally, the usage of the term added to the description of the era you're writing about. And, pardon my bluntness, but I would prefer what you did because it's timely to what I've seen some authors do, such as making Peter and Edmund utter words like "Yo", "F*ck", "Cool", and etc. :P
Hope this wasn't too boring for you. :| Others have stated their opinions more fluently than I, but I would like to support those who have stated the same thing as me anyway. :) Thank you for reading!
- Lhanae
no subject
With the term Negro, it was actually a common, accepted term, used even by those of that race themselves, both then and even today. I think Ana had pointed some institutions that still use the term. "Indio" sounds to be a very offensive term that was offensive even at the time. Did the Filipinos themselves ever use it, I wonder? If you see this post, I'd would be interested in that.
And to that point, if there were some sort of fiction of that time, how would you feel about using the term at all? Is it one that is better relegated to the dumpster for good, something that is so offensive, it simply should not be used, ever? Or does trotting it out occasionally in appropriate contexts important to remind the present to not repeat the past? Very interesting questions and thank you again for sharing.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-10-22 04:44 pm (UTC)(link)And that's interesting! =O I'm afraid I can't answer your question though if they actually used the word at the time though, sorry. I would guess that they didn't though, because I haven't encountered anything suggesting it. All I know is that the Spaniards did use it a lot to collectively identify the natives of the country before they came along.
And actually, the term WAS used at the time for fiction. An educated man of the time (meaning an Indio who was rich enough to be sent to Spain for "proper" schooling) and also our national hero today, Jose Rizal, wrote two books on the oppression of the Spaniards to the Filipinos (the natives, or the indios, are who I'm referring to now) in order to show them and somehow jolt them into realizing that after 300 years of oppression, isn't it time they realized that simply accepting all this abuse is wrong?
In those two books, I am quite sure I remember him writing dialogues for the Spaniards where they referred to the natives as Indios, although I'm afraid I can't pinpoint exactly how it was used and all. But it WAS used, which I guess is the main point in our discussion. :)
In present time though, I doubt the ordinary citizen here would get offended by the word Indio. So it wouldn't hurt to use it still, although it does connote a time when we were oppressed and all. Of course, the Spaniards nowadays don't refer to us as that anymore, so it's sort of forgotten unless you either read those two books of Rizal or have to study history.
I hope I answered your questions well enough. I'm sorry I can't provide anything more substantial and supported by evidence though. :( But I hope I explained myself well enough. :)