rthstewart | A review discussing Susan's Journey

Entry tags:

tqsit

A review discussing Susan's Journey

The following was gifted to me my

lady_songsmith

I've reposted it here for reflection. and will be doing so with the others she posted. It's A LOT to consider for me and my head is reeling for the awesomeness of it, but all in good time.

On Susan's Journey

What I am finding difficult to fathom is how S goes from utilizing all the lessons of N -- more fully than any of her siblings, really, and evidently with A's approval whatever P's misgivings on the moral certitude or lack thereof -- to 'no longer a Friend of Narnia.' I expect this is going to be further explored in Part3, but on the tale's present course I find it almost impossible to see the end we know is coming. Then again, my issues with LB as a whole are myriad, beginning with the very basic problem of why they would be sent to bring N into England and then die before they could do anything, but that's CSL for you and if I start on the subject in earnest this will become several pages longer, so I shan't.

The notion of S's interactions with Rab. being part of a game of thrones I do buy; her perception of it as her great failure makes sense in this light but the greatness of that burden seems out of place still. Partly, I think this is because we have not (yet) seen the why of this game -- if she was honestly in love with him, or thought she was for a time (as CSL would seem to have us believe), the emotional fallout is very different than if she gambled for political gain and lost, or if he merely appealed to her vanity (another reading CSL seems to be hinting at). What gain for N did she hope to achieve by this flirtation that she could not have gained by other means?

I find it interesting that the Colonel read pity or sentiment into S's statement that "we cannot ask this of him again." My reading of that sentence was far different; I saw it as, quite simply, a midlevel commander reporting to a superior that one of her troops was not fit for duty. It was to my mind no different than, for example, reporting that a sniper no longer had the eye or steady hand for such work. Everyone has a breaking point; as T's babysitter it should be S's job to see him reaching it and inform the Col. Pushing T too far could be disastrous; that way lies betrayal either deliberate or inadvertent, and the Col would most definitely be aware of that risk. I would have expected him to be grateful that S was on top of the situation and giving them the chance to intervene before it reached such a point; a bit of a vacation might refresh T, or it might not and he'd need to be replaced, but either way the forewarning is useful.

As far as S's liaison with T, I wonder if she wasn't overthinking the matter somewhat. He is enough of a gentleman (though he'd deny it) to feel he had taken advantage of a child, but I think that could have been overcome. He isn't perceptive enough to see, as the Col does, that she's 30, but he is experienced enough in bed to recognize her experience, and the problem with a 15 year old is the mental/emotional readiness. S could have overruled his eventual objections (presuming he'd ever found out; is there any reason for her to break cover before she leaves?) by pointing out that she'd participated enthusiastically and did he honestly think he'd taken a virgin to bed?

Most notably, and in direct contrast to P, S knows what she’s doing. In fact, she sometimes seems to have had very little character growth through this piece. None of her experiences are precisely new and she’s already made her peace with the realities of spy work. She’s facing it on a much larger scale than she ever had to in N, but she has a confidence in her path that’s lacking in P. I think that ties back to my first point, about not seeing where she makes the change. She’s pretty firmly planted on her path right now, and pretty clearly doing Aslan’s work, so how is it she doesn’t get to his Country with the others?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Then again, my issues with LB as a whole are myriad, beginning with the very basic problem of why they would be sent to bring N into England and then die before they could do anything.

THIS. I have always wondered that, and what important thing must they have done in the approximately two years that they had (of being kids again with an extra side of confusion and body dysmorphic disorder) before being yanked back. Your story gives a good explanation, but then, it shouldn't have to do the original author's job (I apply this to series three of Doctor Who and how all Martha's character development came in The Year That Never Was Shown.)

She’s pretty firmly planted on her path right now, and pretty clearly doing Aslan’s work, so how is it she doesn’t get to his Country with the others?

Not any sort of answer, or even directly relevant, but something I've thought ever since first reading LB as a wee thing and been thinking more seriously about over the past few days- the popular conception of Susan is that she's let go of Narnia, forgotten it in favor of life in this world, and so she doesn't get to go back to Narnia in the end as almost a sort of punishment. I've heard several people (Neil Gaiman among them; I love him in general but I have a very decided hatred for his Narnia story) say they felt very betrayed by the series and Aslan because of that, because how could he punish a young girl for liking makeup and boys by taking her whole family and her kingdom away forever? But I've been thinking that Susan sees it almost the same way, except as wondering why Aslan would punish her family. Because he told them all to leave Narnia and grow close to their own world, which Susan did, whether she was a spy or a shallow teenage girl. It was the rest of her siblings and the others that lingered in the past. So as she would see it, as she wouldn't know that everyone went to Narnia, why would Aslan punish all of them with a train crash just for holding onto memories? I think that would cause her some bitterness for awhile, but she would have had to be in a place even before the train accident to have that bitterness stick- perhaps of not being sure if her sister and brothers are growing in ways that Aslan wants them to grow.

A point that some reviewers have made (and that you here in Elecktrum's interview on AsCast) is that Susan chooses her path. She does not abandon Narnia, but, as Animus recently described, "took a different, later train."

This is PART of it. It is also one of the biggest challenges of the story as written. If Susan is frivolous and stupid, it's easy. If Peter is overbearing and pompous, it's easy. The hardest one, the challenge, will be to present it as one where once Peter and Susan hash it out, you the readers walk away 1) divided; and 2) pissed at both of them. This happened in the decision of Asim to not tell Peter that he had seen Edmund. Readers were pretty evenly divided with some seeing that Asim was right to stay silent and others saying rules be damned, Asim owed Peter the truth. That level of uncertain ambiguity is what I am aiming for.

She does not abandon Narnia, but, as Animus recently described, "took a different, later train."

Oh, I like that phrase, it's very good; personally I always assumed that Susan wasn't ready to come back yet and wouldn't have seen Narnia as the rest did, and that would make things difficult.

I'd say you're doing a good job with making things conflicted; that is the true test of an adult story, I think, not whether it has adult elements but whether or not it succumbs to a less mature need for easy answers and monochrome characterisations. And I think that you're putting together a very strongly supported case for the impossibility of Susan being, as you said, frivolous and stupid; her experiences have made her a person that is well beyond that stage of life, so we're left with an incongruity. You let these characters be people beyond what would be easy for telling a story with, and they carry the story quite well.

I had never considered that Susan might see her family dying as a punishment for them, but really that does make sense. After all, she has no reason to know -- other than whatever faith she's held to -- that they've been whisked off to Aslan's Country and are incredibly happy. There would be an awful lot of questions about why they were allowed to die, why so young, and what the point of it all was, wouldn't there? Definitely something I need to think about more.

But I've been thinking that Susan sees it almost the same way, except as wondering why Aslan would punish her family. Because he told them all to leave Narnia and grow close to their own world...why would Aslan punish all of them with a train crash just for holding onto memories?

I think that is a really really interesting reading of it! I guess it goes against the text a little because Lewis clearly wants us to think that Narnia is the happy ending (but then since when do we care what the author intended?), but it's always *always* bothered me that--after the Professor tells them not to talk about Narnia too much and Aslan tells them to get closer to England--it's only Susan who seems to try to move on. Do the rest of them even have friends outside of their little group? Lucy, maybe, but then we find out she was a False Friend.

Were your ears buzzing, Animus, since I was referring to your most recent story? In any event, I'lll probably bump this to a whole new post because the thoughts of Intrikate and Lady Songsmith are so interesting. It's not the approach I'm taking -- that Susan might see the others as punished for living in the past while she heeds Aslan's instructions to embrace Spare Oom. As I see it, they all are embracing a life here as instructed, but there is significant difference of opinion as to how to walk that path.
The point though is a very interesting one to consider -- Susan becomes an apostle rather than the apostate. I've never seen Polly, Eustace, and Jill's criticisms in TLB all that much of a hurdle. It's Peter's condemnation that's the problem -- of course in saying it, he doesn't know they are dead yet, so there is some wriggle room there as he does not know fully just how awful that statement is.

Or, and here we're getting into real brain melty territory and reconciling it all in a nice, neat canon-compliant package, Susan is the one doing Aslan's will, the others have to die in order to free her to do what it is she must. It's Part of The Plan. Brutal yes, for her, but for the others, well they are called home to their happily ever after. Aslan kills the others so that Susan is able to pursue what she must, whatever that might be... Cold War Warrior, Revolutionary, Astronaut, Civil Right Activist, Environmentalist, PM of Canada, Bollywood starlet. Gawd there's kind of a Quantum Leap possibility here, isn't there?

Cold War Warrior, Revolutionary, Astronaut, Civil Right Activist, Environmentalist, PM of Canada, Bollywood starlet. Gawd there's kind of a Quantum Leap possibility here, isn't there?

That's brilliant. I adore your brain. Also along the lines of Possible Career Paths, Andrea and I were watching The Young Victoria the other night and there's this one scene where Albert is standing with Victoria as she draws on a bow and we went OH HI THERE SUSAN because the resemblance was uncanny. Um, yes, Susan traveling in time to be Queen Victoria makes so much sense. *_*

there is significant difference of opinion as to how to walk that path. [...] It's Peter's condemnation that's the problem

Which sort of paints an interesting picture of where their relationship goes, and where it can go. Peter and Susan have different approaches to life and how to do the right thing and I can already see some of the dissonance between the two approaches as Peter reads the letters from Susan. Intriguing.

:D :D :D

Part of me has always wondered if Peter's anger comes from the very fact that she refused to get the rings with them--refusing to go might be enough of a betrayal to Narnia to make her "no longer a friend" regardless of what she believes. [And that would tie into the "Susan the apostle" bit because Aslan specifically said not to use the rings.]

Ooooh I like that. They have to be taken away so she can do Awesome Things.

Well, it's just a different perspective- from Susan's perspective, she has no idea where they are, all she knows is that they all died, so I think we're very free to suppose anything we want about Susan's reaction to that. We see her as being left behind, but she would see herself as the only survivor.

I don't know that they had other friends; I don't believe it's explicitly mentioned, but I don't believe that, after years of diplomatic work and having very public lives as Narnian rulers, that they would tend towards staying solely a little in-group.

True. Although most fics also see her as seeing herself as left behind (woah convoluted sentence).

But it's an interesting omission from canon, I think--Lucy's friend is mentioned but betrays her in VDT; Jill and Eustace don't seem to have other friends; Susan's (implied) friends are implied to be Bad Sorts. They never seem to miss other people or have relationships with other people. And I think it cuts both ways: their time in Narnia would lead them to be very social, but it might also mean they tried to stick to people who understood.

I guess it goes against the text a little because Lewis clearly wants us to think that Narnia is the happy ending (but then since when do we care what the author intended?) Guess you haven't heard from those who say that if you don't adhere to Lewis' medieval and Christian allegorical intent, you should just go write somewhere else?

Also, on the idea of Peter angry that Susan doesn't go along with them to get the Rings because Aslan told them they couldn't go back, SQUEEEEEE! what an utterly awesome idea! That's just.... well, gosh, really deserves some more thinking.

As for the friends point, isn't the idea of giving Susan a friend a part of the idea behind your x-over with Mary Poppins? Do I have the right author, even? I can be a real flake about who is writing what and I read so much I forget where I've been. :p

In any event, I admit it never occurred to me that the Pevensies would not have friends in Spare Oom. I see them as all being very social people, extroverts in the sense that they are energized by being around others. Edmund may be the exception, but that's just because he's ornery and doesn't like being "on" except when he chooses and Susan may be more guarded. But then, I'm up to my eyeballs in Spare Oom and Narnia OCs and I like creating characters for them to interact with. I suppose once again I've blundered all unknowing into things in Narnia that just Are Not Done.

The whole point of things is that they aren't sitting around waiting for the train crash. That means they have to be out DOING and I similarly see Digory and Polly as really setting an example here -- not sitting at the window waiting to die but going out and working to bring Narnia here. I see the whole purpose behind it as apostolic.

I have met those people! Usually I pretend they don't exist though. Although I did get lots of comments on More Dimly in Hell when I first posted that were, essentially, "Agh gay people in my Narnia fic, that's so wrong and Lewis is crying somewhere!" This was pre-movies, so there was a lot less slash fic running around. (Interestingly there wasn't much of a fuss when I wrote Susan/Hermione, so.)

I know, right? I had an epiphany about a year ago about it and I've been trying to work it into a fic ever since. Because in a lot of ways they're disobeying Aslan--not just not forgetting but actively trying to get back via magical rings none of them were supposed to use again.

YES, that is it exactly! (Lol, that is me.) A female friend she can count on and who clearly cares about her.

Hm, I think...hm. In canon they're just not really mentioned as having (good) friends. For whatever reason fic picks up on this, although I think it's maybe a 50/50 divide? There seems to be the question of "How much do they remember?" and if the answer is "a lot!" then authors tend to either have them as sticking with their little clique and being depressed, or somehow turning out to be leaders at school. Personally I loooove seeing them interact with people, so. (Man, I feel so bad because your fics, I have not read them! And they sound so cool! But wow they are *long*, so they are in the pile of Fanfics To Read Once Exams Are Over.)

Yessss, that is excellent. Did you read--there was a fic, I think it was the Narnia Exchange this year? Polly was a SPY. here! (have you seen those fics, btw? Because omg awesome.) Anyway, I love the idea of them going out and using what they learned and did to accomplish things, because let's face it, the Professor was probably world famous and Polly was probably even more awesome.

We have to stop meeting like this... Anyhow...
Anyone objecting to the slash (which I do distinguish from the 'cest), hasn't read Lewis' own words on the subject, bothered to understand the prevalence of it in English male institutions including the boys public schools, or the prevalence of same sex coupling in the natural world. I'm not interested in building the case for it in Narnia, but it's there.

For whatever reason fic picks up on this, although I think it's maybe a 50/50 divide? There seems to be the question of "How much do they remember?" and if the answer is "a lot!" then authors tend to either have them as sticking with their little clique and being depressed, or somehow turning out to be leaders at school.

Well, I suppose, yes. Sorry, to ramble a moment, bear with me, but this is something on which I have not shut up in the 300,000+ words I've written in the last year. I take the very different approach that there's a reason they are sent back and that to accomplish here what they did there means they have to remember everything. There is virtually no angst of the "OMG WAAAAH! I'm not in Narnia anymore" variety. In fact, the whole point, which has become clearer and clearer, is that the worlds are not separate at all, but overlapping, and that Narnia is very relevant here. This is not a cast out of Eden vision, but a vision of embracing Spare Oom and bringing more of the Narnian values of tolerance into this world and using their experience in rebuilding a shattered nation (twice) into a war-torn England. It is a wholly optimistic vision.

(Man, I feel so bad because your fics, I have not read them! And they sound so cool! But wow they are *long*,

Pfbbt. If you are interested, and truly no worries if you aren't, you can get a flavor of it all in the two shorts -- Black as Rat and Crow and In The Spirit of the Season. You won't know any of the backstories, but that never stops me from reading. Talking Beasts as point of view characters who think like beasts! Sex! Tolerance! Multi-culturalism! Espionage!

As for Polly and Digory, well in **my** warped head, Digory is a world famous expert on the Oxford Franciscans and has been constructing a theological and philosophical theory of environmental stewardship that rests upon something other than let's save animals and the environment because of how it makes us feel and because animals are cute. Polly is a libertine and self taught naturalist and conservationist who has traveled the world in the company of polygamist biologist and sometime lover, tried to trace the whole of the Nile but crocodiles ate their native guide, now works at Whipsnade -- a naturalistic zoo in England, hangs out with Julian Huxley, is trying to reintroduce the extinct beaver into England, and gets amorous when she drinks alcohol. Spy? That's Susan. But I am so reading that spy story.
OK, I'll stop now. Really.
I am, frankly, out of my mind.

How on earth have I missed all this glorious Susan etc discussion!?

Animus, the Mary Poppins xover giving Susan an actual friend *must* be written. It will indubitably be wonderful and such a more worthwhile read than most of the Susan in England stories out there.

On the larger topic of Pevensies with friends...I suppose we can't just say that they have no friends in England, because we never do get anything with them in any sort of scene where they would be interacting with friends outside of Narnia. Personally I think it would be a sad state of affairs if Narnia, which IMO has as one of its main points the teaching of open-mindedness, made the Pevensies so cut off that they could never forge meaningful bonds with 'regular' people. I just reread the bit in VoDT when Lucy uses the Magician's book to spy on her friends, and I feel, in retrospect, that Aslan basically told her there to not let Narnia get in the way of her friendships and life in England. Spying, even by magic, is not good - it's like Lucy used Narnia and its inherent magic to distance herself from Spare Oom there, and Aslan is telling her not to do so. Of course the Friends of Narnia would have a special and deep bond, but I don't like to think that they would not have relationships and friends outside of their little circle.

I am really looking forward to addressing this issue on AsCast today. Excellent point, Meto! I think this is a fandom issue, not a Pevensie issue. Just because we don't see them interacting with friends, does not mean they are not there. Going to Animus' point over on her LJ, the fact that fandom perceives them as lacking friends could be one reason for the prevalence of the intense brother bonding fics and the 'cest. There isn't room for anyone else. I think the perceived insularity is also fed by a fandom fear of writing compelling OCs when they may be perceived as Mary Sues.

The difficulty, and it's not an insurmountable one, with the Peter/Susan break coming over the rings is actually two-fold: Susan is not present at the dinner party at which Tirian appears, suggesting that she has split from the "Seven Friends of Narnia" before ever they are aware of Narnia's trouble, and much is made (in typical Eustace-ramble fashion) of the fact that though Peter and Edmund went to get the rings, they had no intention of using them, because they were well aware they had been forbidden to return. They had clearly intended to give the rings up to those who could still go -- Eustace and Jill -- only there was crashing and death and god-figure intervention before that could happen.

So I woke up this morning with an idea in my head that I had to run over here and post about: Supposing one looks at LB as replaying the state of affairs during their reign -- The boys and Lucy go off to fight for Narnia while Susan stays back at the Cair/England.

You know, I really wonder, why people think that it was Aslan's will that they were killed? Why couldn't it have been just an unfortunate incident?
They died and they went to Aslan's country. And that's all!
And he let them watch the end of their Kingdom...

And why do people presume, that Peter disapproves? Maybe he just means that she is not a member of their little club, she grew out of it. Girls do grow up faster then boys even if she is younger than Peter. And NOW while she holds Narnia in her heart, she doesn't feel the need to keep talking about it.

I see them being not just siblings but friends too. I think they let Susan grow up knowing that it is only a question of time before they follow her and become close again.

I do see those few lines in TLB as being pretty harsh, though I also assume that they come from different sources. I think Eustace, Polly, and Jill don't understand what is going on. I personally find Peter's words very harsh though, harsher than membership or not in their club. Though, as Animus mentioned above, I do like the idea that it could be nothing more than her refusal to join in their scheme to get the rings.

As for the killed/accident, it's a good point. You could easily have Susan come to the conclusion, for instance, that it is evidence of evil and stuff happens in the world -- bad things happen to good people certainly is one way to approach it as a theological/philosophical question.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

A review discussing Susan's Journey

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject