rthstewart | All Aboard!

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Chapter 15 of TQSiT, Folly, is up.

We have, in no particular order:

The return of Evil Banker Morgan and Jina
A refutation of the incest stories (which I sort of felt I needed to do in order to write a Peter & Susan relationship without the Peter/Susan connotation.
A build out of the ideas of Ilysia on Susan and Rabadash
And, in the Spare Oom part, kissing.

A word about that last one, but frankly, I'm more interested in what you thought. Susan is kissing someone who is not Caspian, Peter, or Rabadash. Further, it is consensual and her consent is not ambiguous, in fact, she is the initiator. Susan and sexual violence seem to show up a fair bit in fandom and that is obviously not something I want perpetuate at all. Fandom needs those story lines the way I need more dog hair in my shoes.

Further, there is, admittedly, a "squick" factor because of her apparent age, of which Tebbitt is ignorant and Guy knows full well. So, I go there, but only so far, which makes her initiation and control of the situation even more important. This is not Susan's first time in this situation, I wanted to assure an equality of power, i wanted "no" to mean "no," and I wanted her to really desire this and still have the wisdom and intellect to stop. So yes, a total fantasy, I suppose. This is one I've been thinking about a whole lot and am really curious to see what folks think.

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Well, as I said in my review, I kind of saw the Tebbitt/Susan bit coming, not to the extent you wrote it. I had an inkling that Susan might resort to something physical to motivate Tebbitt. Knowing Susan's real age, it does seem a little uncomfortable to read, and I am glad that Susan and Tebbitt are both aware of the reason for the said kissing. Tebbitt might be mad, but Susan knows what is at stake here. It speaks a lot of Susan as a character and you as a writer that there was an opening for something more but it wasn't exploited. In fanfic it's so hard to write restraint when so much of it is just romance.

I noticed you mentioned that Susan would tell Edmund a portion of it, but didn't include Peter's reaction as he reads it, becuase surely that part must come before the news of the ship sinking in the letter Peter's reading. Interesting.

As for what is happening in fandom, I kind of avoid shipping in Narnia like the plague since the majority is either Mary Sue or incest, with only a small amount that is actually well written, so I wouldn't know what exists.I suspect the Rabadash episode probably does a lot to push the Susan and sexual violence idea, though I kind of don't see why it should.

Thanks for weighing in over here, Ruan. I don't know if you'll check back, but I'll add a PM.

I've been writing fic for a long time now and my first work, over 15 years ago was much more in this vein, less is more, the feelings and sensations and leaving a lot to the imagination of the adult reader. As the content of the Internet coarsened, I veered into more mature material, though never to the degree of what would be found, say in Twilight now, or even in some of the Peter/Susan and Caspian/Susan material that's out there, including on ff.net

I do love the romantic genre of P&P, X Files, Bujold, Dorothy Sayers, and most recently, Laurie King (Sherlock Holmes and her OC named of all things, Mary Russell -- who knew?). I [b]have[/b] been holding back. In Parts 1 and 2, it's been the age of the characters that has prevented me from doing much of anything in this regard. In the other Narnia-based work, I blundered into BRD, never intending Morgan and Harold to end up together. Nor did I understand that some of what is in that story is waaay outside the norm of what is in this fandom.

TSG Part 3 is an open question for me in this regard because I have LOTS of plans and hope to finally be able to let my romantic soul out to play a little bit. Where this leaves readers like you who generally dislike romance in this fandom, I'm not sure. I suppose you all will let me know when (if) we get there.

I've read a number of dark Caspian stories that involve raping Susan (she eventually falls in love with him, of course). Peter is nearly always the instigator/seducer in the incest stories, and there are any number of Rabadash stories that imply emotional and physical abuse. There are of course plenty of Susan/Caspian stories that are pure romance. I deeply dislike the Twilight genre that glorifies sexual predation as romantic. And so this chapter reflects another habit of mine -- when I'm bothered by a trend, I speak my point of view through the story.

As for the coming discussion amongst the sibs, I assume that Peter and Susan have been holding each other's hands through romantic travails and disappointments for years now. That was one of the many things I wanted to accomplish in the flashback. I needed to build up their relationship and so this was a step in that direction. The burden of being unable to establish a clear succession plan in Narnia weighs most heavily on them -- they both feel that failure acutely.

Regardless, the sinking of the ship becomes for them all, the most important thing, shoving all this gooey feeling stuff out of the way. At this point, we are within a few days of Aug. 19 (the Raid on Dieppe) and Susan is coming home very soon. There's not much left -- this letter is from a few days after July 16, and given the writing, the censors and the travel, there's not much more to tell. I'm not sure how much of Susan's homecoming I will tell, or if that's better for Part 3... I need to get a sense from readers of that.

I adore the point you made about Susan relating to other male characters in fandom. It really is awful. (Dark Caspian - my goodness!) I so admire the Susan you have created here, who is independent and creative thinking, a master of concealment and emotional control; she self-possessed, poised, and handles the men who would take advantage of her with a dismissive, diffusing, totally boss comment. Lovely and as sharp as broken glass! It's great to see this kind of character in our fandom, particularly when Twilight is being pushed as the modern romance that's Good and Right because they wait until they're married to have sex, despite perfectly disgusting themes of controlling relationships and female dependence as the ideal expression of love. What lovely things for teenagers girls to aspire to. Your Susan is pure fabulosity. Such a wonderful contribution to fandom.

Thanks, LARM. Twilight was one of the offenders I had in mind. In truth, there are a lot of gushy Susan/Caspian stories out there, and I can't say that I read that many of them. Caspian is not always the rapist (sometimes it's Peter or Rabadash) and with Susan eventually enjoying her assailant. This is the same model that plays over and over in Twilight fic, to be sure. It's a popular formula in the romance genre generally. The more I think of what is done to Susan the more troubling it is. Stories usually don't write her with Peter -- I suspect because authors are worried about creating subtext. Even the adult Susan is constantly portrayed in ambiguous situations. Or, she is, of course, fallen, in the state of apostasy and cast out from Eden.

I've been eavesdropping in the comment section here, and I have to say that although I've never read the Twilight books (nor do I plan to), both your comments regarding it perfectly crystallize my nebulous dislike of its themes, and if you have no objections, I just may quote you - especially LARM's comment about the modern romance that's Good and Right. Just ... ugh.

Okay. Back to quietly reading and being wistfully amazed at how insightful other people can be!

Well Twilight is a whole other subject in and of itself, but something we have discussed amongst ourselves is its effect upon other fandoms, including Narnia. In the Twilight model, virginity is heralded as the single virtue without regard to the very, very bothersome dynamic that develops amongst the characters. Bella truly wishes for her boyfriend to kill her and sacrifice her soul so that they might be together forever. On their first date, she tells all her friends not to worry if his loses control and kills her because it's not his fault. Edward's stalking and controlling behavior and her extreme passivity are glorified and justified because they aren't having sex. (Never mind what happens when they finally do marry and do have sex and it is a very, very violent and battering event, but that's OK too because she loves him and what's a little pain when you love your rock hard, hot vampire husband? It's not as if he can help himself, right?)

Under this model, virginity becomes the touchstone by which the morality of the whole is judged and without regard to what else is going on. So long as the characters remain virginal, all manner of other troubling conduct is permissible or passes without remark -- torture, assassination, capital punishment, uber-graphic violence, marginalization and invisibility of women, and, well, the list goes on. I was discussing one story with someone last night where the overall message of the piece is that the female OC must be gentled, improved, made dependent and adoring before the canon King will marry her. It's a common theme, yet, so long as there is no sex until marriage, it is viewed as a "romantic" and moral story.

see what I mean about being wistfully amazed? I just say that Twilight disturbs me, and most Narnia romantic fanfiction is dreadful, but I've never been able to articulate what bothers me about it (well, aside from the Mary-Sues and historical anachronisms and general bad writing).

I don't *dislike* romance in this fandom, not in the sense that I will never read it. As I mentioned in the review, I enjoyed the Banker Morgan and Edmund parts of this chapter. I can take romance when it's part of a larger picture. Also I'm just generally wary of jumping into reading a Narnia romance, especially from an author that I don't know but that's more because I've had bad experience. I have enjoyed some well written Narnia romance and I'm sure with the characters you've developed so far, they will be enough motivation for me to stay with part 3.

Twilight...Nothing had ever made me cringe more than Twilight, especially at the borderline-abusiveness (borderline?) of the relationship. And I read all four books to see if it would get better. It didn't. It got worst.

I think it might be worth expanding on the Rabadash story because I'm very curious how you see Lambert altering the scene. I know you're not setting out to write huge A/U, but you have already hinted that Lambert does play a part in that episode.

Well, I don't know about the squee factor here, when it's all somewhat calculated, but the attraction is obviously quite mutual, and there's nothing cold about it, so yeah, I can go with it. Certainly, Susan's control is formidable, so I think you've managed to achieve what you set out to do very well (fantasy or no).

I'm wondering whether it's merely the lure of the unobtainable for Tebbitt, his habitual behaviour with women, or whether there's something a bit more behind it (a la Gladys/Lowrey, albeit still in its infancy). I'm also wondering whether anything that may have been forming has been killed stone dead by this encounter, and if there's anything left to be salvaged. Does Tebbitt have a broody monster or a quick-flash-and-then-it's-over kind of temper. He seems the impulsive, quick-flash type, but I'm curious about how you see it.

Re Ruan Chun Xian's comment about the absence of Peter's reaction, I'm wondering whether that's going to come later when Susan gets home (assuming we see some of those conversations, at any rate).

You really are going to have to write the whole Rabadash thing, you realise? After the set-up in this chapter, and the bits with the Trickster in Chapter 14, you aren't going to be able to avoid it - we'll pester you to death until you add it to your plot bunny list (although I think it's gone rather beyond a plot bunny already).

Oh dear, what else did I like. Your flashback had a lot of little bits that I just loved. The Suspian explanation, the set-up for Peter and Susan without being Peter/Susan (if you know what I mean), the "knighting" thing (nice one-liner there), the Glasswater set-up for BRD, the re-appearance of the splints and the Rule of Threes... (etc, etc).

BTW, I certainly wasn't complaining about the density of Chapter 14. I enjoyed it a lot, even though it wasn't an easy (meaning lightweight) read. It's set the foundations for a lot of what's coming, and I really like the way you twist a whole lot of seemingly unrelated stuff together, and voila - there's a whole new take on Narnia (and yes, I do know that it's Not That Simple). Be reassured, your hard work is appreciated.

Cheers
: )

Thanks for the comments on the last chapter. As you've undoubtedly noticed, I read everything people write and do try to adjust accordingly. The Tebbitt/Susan snogging was one of those scenes that has been in my head for a very, very long time. I knew I wanted to do it, I wasn't sure how. There are a few that are like that -- the train platform scene with Peter, Asim, and Mary is another one.

As I as driving home today, talking aloud, I thought about how Tebbitt and Susan would resolve this, other than, oh let me comfort you while your drunk, let's go to bed together, which would be the fan fic convention. I like your observation that he is quicker to anger and quick to forgive. There's also going to be a sort of stiff reserve between them, but that's OK, because Edmund and Peter are reading on or around August 22 or so (a few days after Dieppe) and Susan has just written of events on July 16. There's not that much more of a time span to cover for Susan and Tebbitt and they will have plenty to do in the meantime.

I really do not feel I have anything meaningful to add to Rabadash and Susan. Fandom is full of so many of those. The Trickster on the other hand... well, yes. I just love the idea that he's pounding on Pan's forest glade, yelling, "You stupid drunken lout! I need to plant an idea in one of your Faun's heads and he won't let me in!"

As for the Peter/Susan interaction, it is going to have to be in person, not in letter and I don't see Peter really discussing it with Edmund. But, I think the reunion of the siblings will frame the beginning of Part 3 in the way that Peter's reunion framed the beginning of Part 2. I have a lot of plotting to do for Part 3, most especially because all my carefully set out timeline when Kaboom! I was just thinking this evening about the fact that I'm going to have to deal with whether Peter ends up in service, and if so, what.

It's possible that the Trickster story will come after Part 2 while I'm plotting out Part 3. I'm starting to wonder about a Valentine's Day set of vignettes as well, though Peter's a bit of a problem there.

Oh, you asked about Fooh and Beehn. Palace Guard with Dahlia and the cubs is Year 7-8, or thereabouts, and BRD is year 10. I might be a bit off there, but the cubs are young in BRD. Dahlia and the Cubs' Christmas story is set sometime before or right after BRD. This flashback is some 2+ years after BRD, so Morgan has been around a while and the Fooh at least has grown up a bit. They are, when the timeline is examined closely, probably portrayed a bit younger than Cheetah's actually would be in BRD if they were really 2-3 years old. But, we'll just say they were slow to mature because Dalia was over protective.

Like Morgan, Tebbitt's role grew in the telling, btw. I'd never intended to kill him off, but I'd not intended for him to have much to do after Susan leaves America. Now, some readers Metogator and Love_and_Rock_Music, are really hoping for more Tebbitt in Part 3 and I've actually written some silliness. (Definitely not for the children's Narnia). I'm in the same boat with Morgan -- if I'd intended to keep the character around, I would have done some things differently. I'll see where it goes, I think.

I just love the idea that he's pounding on Pan's forest glade, yelling, "You stupid drunken lout! I need to plant an idea in one of your Faun's heads and he won't let me in!"

Oh, Lord. Please. Just... please. My life may not be complete until this is available for my perusal.

Oh yeah - now that I've just got to read. Please? And as for Rabadash/Susan, yeah sure, there's plenty of it, but no-one except you and Ilysia have gone in this direction, so yes, I do think you've got something worth adding. That said, I don't have to write it, so... : )

As I said before, I thought what happened between Tebbitt and Susan was tasteful, in that we know why it happened and we know when it stopped. And that Susan was the initiator here... you do a very good job of letting us know in no uncertain terms that it was her decision, and that she did have motivation behind it.

And like Min said, you really are going to have to write Rabadash after this. I see no other way about it. Oh, just thinking of what you could do with that storyline is insane, and I find myself really looking forward to it.

Bravo!

I just posted long above about Rabadash. The Trickster yes, but Susan and Rabadash? Does fandom really need another one?

Thanks for the commentary on Susan/Tebbitt. That was one I really, really worked on for all that it's in concept a very, very old part of the story. I really wanted there to be an empowerment here. Fandom does not need more women in situations of ambiguous consent and abusive coercion. Something else that I have thought about a lot, though it's not relevant here, is how one says no to a Monarch. I don't think a subject can, hence why the interactions, such as they are, are written as they are in BRD. I write, in that story, females as instigators, more or less, because I did not want to deal with issues of abuse of power.

Yep, I'm just a grumpy old feminist that way and I'm not planning on perpetuating certain fandom conventions. What's on display in Susan's interaction with Tebbitt is a shot straight across the bow of an awful lot of them.

You bring up a really interesting point with the idea of saying no to Monarch. Maybe not exactly relevant in TQSiT, but in the others, most definitely. And if you're going to play in grown-up Narnia, I think that could very easily become an issue.

Bravo for shots across the bow! We can always use more people willing to stand against the ridiculous conventions that pop up out of, well, I'd rather not think where.

So what I didn't address in my review just now:

Loved the continuity between this story, "By Royal Decree", "The Palace Guard" and your other stories. And Jalur and Otter mentions! We can't forget those things.

Peter and Susan's reaction to the suggestion of incest -- when I first read that, Andi Horton's "Peter Bows" came to mind and very strongly. I think it's because my reaction to the thought of any incest between the two mirrors my own reaction to her story. That said, I am glad that the two older siblings understood why the Dryads would make such a suggestion though of course, the Humans and many other Narnians would never accept it for their own kind.

As for Susan and Tebbitt... I generally do not like reading romances in this fandom. There are a few well written stories though where it's Susan/Caspian that I do enjoy because either the relationship is written well, or that the romance is just one part of a much larger story and it does not take center stage in the scheme of all things. However, I must admit that I enjoyed Susan and Tebbitt here. The way you write it, it does not make it just like a typical romance story you find these days. Your Susan is an adult, a woman with much experience in such matters, a Queen, and one who knows what she's doing -- she's not made out to be a silly Queen with her head in the clouds and it's not a love at first sight type of thing.

What I just realized as well is how I love the Peter/Susan relationship here. A sister and brother trying to make the best of things and understanding each other though they are an ocean apart. They may not be able to comfort each other in person but I feel like in writing this letter, Susan was able to reach out to her older brother and he will be prepared to help her get through this when she returns.

The ending really was painful to read. You can feel the despair as one understands the significant effort the British made to procure that much needed help and then to have it disappear in a blink of an eye. I am glad you didn't shy away from revealing that though. It brings a greater sense of appreciation to those who served in defense of the Allies.

Okay, finally posting with my continued (and hopefully more coherent) thoughts on feminism in Narnia and Susan.

First off - by 'feminism' I do not mean let's make all our women characters super-strong and competitive and loudmouthed and, you know, men in women's bodies. I've always had an issue with that sort of abrasive view of feminism - that it needs to be all about putting women on an equal stand with men, usually by making them eschew dresses and makeup and other 'girly' things. I much prefer an idea where women can be women, can be proud to be women, and of course it would be optimal if women and men *could* be fully equal in terms of wages and opportunity and such, but I don't think that women should need to try to be more 'manly' to do that. The real feminist fight should be for a world where we embrace the fact that yes, women and men are different, but that's okay, because everyone still has worth and should be respected and celebrated for that.

I really didn't mean for this post to turn into a rant. Let's move on to your glorious story.
What I want to look at is the scene after Morgan's left, after the incest idea has been brought up and shot down, when Peter and Susan discuss her romantic life and Rabadash is brought up.
There was something that struck me very hard in the fact that, as much as he truly does respect his sister and everything she is capable of, Peter still seems to assume that to *others* she is only beauty and a marriage-prize; Lambert, too, though in a different way. With Lambert we of course know that his entire life is devoted to keeping Susan safe, and also we already know that Rabadash is His Royal Ass-ness and that Lambert's wariness of Rabadash's apparent respect for Susan's brain is well-founded. BUT. Throughout the Chronicles and Narnia fandom, there is a deeply-rooted and sometimes quite subtle view that as competent as Susan might be, her primary power and raison d'etre, as it were, is to be pretty, and to attract men. This, by the way, is not at all a critique of your portrayal - but that powerful comment of Lambert's in which he says that the very reason he so distrusts Rabadash is that Rabadash is seemingly NOT infatuated with Susan and her beauty - that is a very powerful line not just in terms of the immediate story but, for me, in terms of something much larger.

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